Regarding Midnight Synergy - Part 2: The Forum

[Marinus]

I didn't read/understand exactly every single word that is written in this topic, but I've a pretty good idea what's going on. So as far as I can see I totally agree with what Laura said in her last post, this one:

if we can find moderators that can be impartial and even-handed, without leaving certain groups or individuals felt "picked on".

That's a mighty big IF,....

....another war starts all over again.

Thanks for listening, that's all I've got to say

(Edited by MS to remove personal attack).

[tyteen4a03]

If someone is mad at my sig,I am sorry for that.
Removed.

[popo]

I think it would be hard to find a good moderator and I also think if you choose one he or she should have the option to register under a different name, sort of giving them an anonymity. Using one for the purpose of moderator and one name for interacting with the forum.

I don't agree with this at all. I think if one of the members is to become moderator then we should all know who it is. That way we can object if we know of some reason they shouldn't be moderator. I would feel very uneasy if I knew the person was in disguise. The only way I would accept an anonymous moderator would be if it were someone who has never been on here before, someone who Patrick knows personally.

I've been on several forums where if a person hasn't visited for a certain number of years then decides to enter that forum again they need to re-register. I think that's a good idea.

I also think this is a good idea. Even if you only come on here to look for levels or solutions, it would be nice if you posted once in a while, if only to say 'thanks'.


There is also something else that a lot of games forums have, and that's a rating system for members. When you make a post other members can give you points, or take points off you, according to how helpful or unhelpful, or positive or negative your post was. Getting enough negative points would result in you being banned. These forums also have loads of kids on them, in fact they're mostly kids, and I haven't come across one unruly one yet. It's a bit like getting a gold star in your sum book. Maybe something to think about.

[Muzozavr]

I've been on several forums where if a person hasn't visited for a certain number of years then decides to enter that forum again they need to re-register. I think that's a good idea.

I also think this is a good idea. Even if you only come on here to look for levels or solutions, it would be nice if you posted once in a while, if only to say 'thanks'.

I disagree, because I'm one of such "forum-shifty" guys, and it's VERY annoying when you have to re-register. It's only a good idea when the userbase is overloaded.

[laura n.]

There is also something else that a lot of games forums have, and that's a rating system for members. When you make a post other members can give you points, or take points off you, according to how helpful or unhelpful, or positive or negative your post was. Getting enough negative points would result in you being banned. These forums also have loads of kids on them, in fact they're mostly kids, and I haven't come across one unruly one yet. It's a bit like getting a gold star in your sum book. Maybe something to think about.

Popo, that is a very interesting solution to a "negative" problem. It would prevent all the responsibility falling on a Moderators shoulders. Make each person accountable for their own actions, if they continue to be a "negative" force on the forum, it gives the other forum members some control on how to deal with this person.

Honestly, that's one of the better solutions I've heard yet

[Midnight Synergy]

First, I had to edit a few of the posts above to remove personal "attacks" (for lack of a better word). Please do no fall back on blaming individuals. Not only is it guaranteed to move this discussion toward another feud, it is also a short-sighted approach. Case in point: this particular forum member was not even a member, and we had our share of "personal" problems on this board. Just saying "get rid of him/her" doesn't solve anything, even IF I did this.

The ratings systems does if its good points... what I was hoping for (and again, this might need re-install of the board) is a ratings system applied to the level database. Not everyone plays every single of the thousands of level, so a rating system might be a nice way to get started for new users... pick out some of the top rated levels.

A ratings system can also be abused. Just imagine we had a ratings system when the last big feud errupted. I can tell you exactly what would have happened - lots of negative ratings (followed by calls of banning) on both sides.

Regarding the moderator (or, as I think, moderators). The more I think about it, the more I think that it is not so much the person that matters, but the guidelines. If there are clear guidelines (which, I admit, there currently aren't) then it is easy for moderators to be impartial, and inappropriate behaviour of moderators is easier to keep in check. So, I think one thing we definitely should do at the end of this discussion (or parralel to it) is think about what fair-use rules of the board would be. What are language requirements, what sort of off-topic is ok, etc...

[Blast!10]

First, I had to edit a few of the posts above to remove personal "attacks" (for lack of a better word). Please do no fall back on blaming individuals. Not only is it guaranteed to move this discussion toward another feud, it is also a short-sighted approach. Case in point: this particular forum member was not even a member, and we had our share of "personal" problems on this board. Just saying "get rid of him/her" doesn't solve anything, even IF I did this.

So I was right. You ARE on both sides.

a ratings system applied to the level database

But pleeeeeeeeeease make a way to disable ratings for your upload. Pleeeeeeease!

A ratings system can also be abused.

Of course! Like on the Nifforum. All of my custom Knytt Stories levels get a maximum rating of 3/10, so now I don't even bother making them.

Regarding the moderator (or, as I think, moderators). The more I think about it, the more I think that it is not so much the person that matters, but the guidelines. If there are clear guidelines (which, I admit, there currently aren't) then it is easy for moderators to be impartial, and inappropriate behaviour of moderators is easier to keep in check. So, I think one thing we definitely should do at the end of this discussion (or parralel to it) is think about what fair-use rules of the board would be. What are language requirements, what sort of off-topic is ok, etc...

I don't think a moderator guideline list will be very hard to make. Like, don't be rude, don't do excessive post editing/deletion, don't constantly fix small spelling or grammar mistakes in other people's posts, write clearly without LOLCATZING, don't do excessive topic locking/deletion, don't abuse smilies, follow the general forum rules, etc.

[Salin]

I agree with you Blast10, in your last lines there. A guideline would do the moderating easy. And also if you have more than one moderator, they could consult eachother if misunderstanding should occure. Wich happenes.
If you deside to hire moreator(s), I will suggest that you pick someone with another timezone than MS are in, so they can cover when you're sleeping, or otherwise occupied.
I would also feel uncomfortable with an anonomys moderator, if it's a board member.

[janellesnip]

I just spent over an hour writing a response to this, and the system logged me out and I lost the message... that speaks to the necessity of an overhaul. Let me see if I can retrieve it.

Janelle

[janellesnip]

Dear Patrick,
I am very glad that you have actively sought out feedback about your forum, since I have had several issues with it. Most often, I have had trouble with the search function, although I do not recall the exact instances in which I have had these problems. I think it had to do with searching for posts by poster, and perhaps with a couple of the other search options (I need more, in order to get more precise responses). In addition, when I have searched and received no results or too many results, and then needed to change my search terms, I received the response that I am not allowed to carry out a new search so soon after the first. This did not take long to reset, but it was a bother. In addition, searching for a member was impossible, since I had to upload the list of members and go through it alphabetically, instead of being able to search for one single member.
What I did like about the forum is the possibility of communicating with other members privately, without knowing their private e-mails. While I do not mind you knowing my private e-mails, and usually choose the e-mail notification option in order to be notified of a response, I treasure the fact that I am not bothered in my private e-mail. That allows me to set the time of day I would like to use for communicating about Loof and Stinky.
As far as level solutions, I do not think they should be mandatory; however, I do think that they should be recommended. Most of the children's levels are straightforward, but some levels I just cannot figure out. I think levels that are hex-edited to the point of (insolubility?) are no good for the general community and ought to have the word "hex" somewhere in their title. And stupid levels that consist of walking a straight line to the exit, with or without coins; or having to wait a half hour for the coilies to kill themselves; or have no solutions (fools); or have stinky shot before the "lights" come on, or be transported to the exit as soon as the lights come on... should be banned, or at least banished to a different corner of the forum than real levels. Perhaps if someone volunteered to play all new levels (or perhaps a team of people), the problem of stupid levels would not come up. (There could be problems with this, but I think the good aspects would outweigh the bad ones.) This would be the equivalent of having the levels moderated. It would also allow the "moderator(s)" to notify the original poster in case a level is complicated enough to recommend that a solution or a partial solution be posted. As (Liz?) said, requiring a solution may keep people from posting; but recommending one is OK.
As far as a point system, I think that would be a good idea, or at least a "thumbs up/thumbs down" system. Automatic banning should not be an immediate consequence, before the "moderator" reads a couple of the posts that have led to the problem. If I had to give out points here, I would give excellent ratings to Gen (my mentor), Loirae, Mozozavr, Marinus, Liz, and Mark. I have had very short correspondences with others, but these have seemed to be the most helpful to me.

two goals in mind. (1) to provide an essential service for owners of Return To Wonderland in the ability to upload/download each other’s level creations and (2) to provide an opportunity for players to socialize and meet other members of the Wonderland community.

I think it has accomplished those goals quite well.
By the way, deactivating accounts is cruel and in my opinion should never be done without prior warning at least two weeks in advance to the user. (If it turns out that the user's e-mail is no longer valid, deactivation may be automatic.)

(1) What are you currently using this board for? (And you are using this board, given that you are reading this post, even if you just download levels or lurk in the background).

The most important function for me was to get hints or solutions to levels that I could not figure out on my own, especially when I was beginning. It also allows me to thank members, whose levels I particularly liked.
I use Mette's site periodically to download all new levels, and find the information on it very useful. I think all new users should know about Mette soon after joining.

(3) If you are no longer an active member or have neve been active, but still visit to read, then “Why?” and “Under what circumstances would you consider to be active or active again?”

As soon as I completed wonderland and secret worlds, I have begun to check the unanswered posts to see whether I could help beginners. It seems that there are not a lot of new solution requests -- rather, there are many new off-topic posts and new levels. I usually do not respond to these. The exception is when I have played a level and then look up any posts concerning it, in order to leave a comment. So I am "active" but not "highly visible".

* A complete re-boot of the forum. Re-installation using the newest forum software (with latest anti-spam features) and starting with zero posts. New registration for everybody. Obviously, porting selected posts (e.g. the level database) is one issue.

No one can tell which posts were important to a particular user -- what would "selected posts" be? Will all of our work be unavailable to new users? (That is, will previously posted levels and previously posted solutions to levels as well as answers to important questions be deleted?) I for one would feel discouraged if I had to start all over again.

* Implementation of other possible ways to organize the level database - e.g. using the forum to post new levels for the first time, but then archiving them regularly (similar to what mette does, but perhaps in an actual database with comments/solutions/ratings/etc). I’m not sure how technically feasible this is, but I’m throwing this idea “out there”.

Archiving would be splendid -- but for reasons that the other members have mentioned, complete solutions may not always be possible or necessary; and having all comments in the archive on each level may make the archive too cumbersome. Ratings are good.

* Introduction of Moderators. Clear guidelines would need to be established. The idea would be to limit the number of nonsensical or irrelevant posts.

We ought to know who the moderator is, and be able to turn to him/her for help if necessary. I do not like the idea of anyone having two identities (talking to each other? or pro- and con- something in the same conversation?) I liked the straightforwardness of knowing everyone's nickname.

* Re-introduction of the “Silly Zone”, especially for younger posters. A place where anything can be posted, but going hand-in-hand with much stricter standards for the other parts of the forum.

* As a counterpoint to the above, complete removal of the Off-Topic zones. Stricter moderation forcing posts to be only Wonderland/Game specific.

I don't feel qualified to say anything directly about this. I tend to prefer on-topic posts, but if on- and off- are strictly separated, I do not mind.

* Making the forum accessible from the main Midnight Synergy page. A potential for lots of new people to join the community, but also many potential pitfalls.

I am not in favour of this possibility. I think membership ought to be available only with purchase of the game (for the person and for others in his/her home, who play the games). There is no purpose in inviting everyone who stumbles upon the site to join.

I know I may sound opinionated, but I am risking this possibility in favour of giving as much feedback as possible.

Yours,
Janelle

ps "due to" is spelled "ue" and not "do to".

[Pat]

Patrick, let's see if I've got this right....revamp the system, add a moderater and give THEM the quidelines that would allow THEM to ban someone.... along comes a member who breaks all the rules and everyone wants him/her banned....that's an awfully round-about way for you to avoid pushing the 'magic' button!

[Salin]

Patrick, let's see if I've got this right....revamp the system, add a moderater and give THEM the quidelines that would allow THEM to ban someone.... along comes a member who breaks all the rules and everyone wants him/her banned....that's an awfully round-about way for you to avoid pushing the 'magic' button!

I'm sorry, my english isn't good enough to understand what you mean. Can you please excplain?

[Midnight Synergy]

To be honest, I don't quite understand your post either, pat. I wish I had a magic button, whatever it was supposed to do. Besides, this process should not be about "ban him" or "ban her"... if I had listened to "majority rule" on banning in the past, then a lot of people currently active would have been long gone.

Again, I think the solution is coming up with guidelines that allow people to work together, NOT looking for people to blame.

[bob roest]

... if I had listened to "majority rule" on banning in the past, then a lot of people currently active would have been long gone.

I would have snuck in the back way.

[Salin]

Again, I think the solution is coming up with guidelines that allow people to work together, NOT looking for people to blame.

I agree with you there, Patrick. But how?? It seems impossible to work with some of the people. I sometimes feel that some people, and not just here, are always causing/ looking for trouble.
I don't know if banning them is the solution either, as Bob says, they can always sneak in the backway.

I too want a happy, friendly forum, as it once were. So maybe you/we need the silly thread, or off topic, so the silly ones can chat in there, and the ones who wanna talk levels can do that in peace?

About the archives thing, I have no idea how it would work, so I'll leave that for you to deside.

[popo]

I too want a happy, friendly forum, as it once were.

To be honest, as I usually am (and sometimes to my detrement ), I don't think it's ever been as happy a place as we might believe it has. There has always been a lot of back biting going on in the background between various groups of people. I don't suppose you can ever get rid of that, people have differences after all. But making it seem all friendly and luvvy dovey on the surface doesn't mean the underlying problems have gone away.

Personally, I really don't know why I still come on here. I don't play anymore, I don't chat anymore, the folks who I used to help out with models have stopped making levels. There's nothing here for me now. It's sad, but true.

I do like a good debate though...

[tyteen4a03]

(Removed by MS)

[popo]

This is an example of the negativity points you get on one certain games forum ...

Infraction System
If a user violates a rule, they will be given 1 warning. If the incident occurs again, infraction points will be given by a moderator. Infraction points will stay on your record and accumulate until they expire.

Code: Select all

Infraction Points        Period Banned from Message Board 
     5 points                        1 week 
     10 points                       2 weeks 
     15 points                       1 month  

Infraction                              Infraction Points            Expires
Inappropriate Content                        5                       12 months 
Personal Information                         5                       12 months 
Harassment/Rudeness                          5                       12 months 
Outside Links/Email Address                  5                       12 months 
Spamming                                     1                       1 month 
Chatting                                     1                       1 month 
Posting Copyrighted Information              1                       1 month

So you can see from this that only moderators can give you infraction points so no need to worry that someone will give you negative points just because they don't like you. There is a 'report this post' button for anyone who thinks your post is abusive in some way to send your post to all the moderators to check out.

[uneekrose]

I'm glad you clarified that Popo. I think that's a pretty good idea. Now are the points visible to everyone on the forum or just to the one that receives them?

[popo]

Well, either no-one has any infraction points or they're not visible because I've never seen any. The positive points, or Reputation Points, are visible though. They can be awarded by anyone who thinks your post was good or helpful, and they also accumulate the longer you're registered, so if you've been there a long time and are really helpful you can end up with thousands of points. I don't know what use they are though, apart from showing people how helpful you are.

[Salin]

Thanks Popo.
I know what you mean about good old days. To me, the good old days were before I knew people were doing stuff behind the scene. IE my innocent days

We actually only need one rule: Play nice, read every post with a positive mind, and remember the non-english speakers, like me, sometimes have a horrible way of say things, unintentional. (with 14 commas, :LOL:)

That's all there is to it.

[tyteen4a03]

This is an example of the negativity points you get on one certain games forum ...

Infraction System
If a user violates a rule, they will be given 1 warning. If the incident occurs again, infraction points will be given by a moderator. Infraction points will stay on your record and accumulate until they expire.

Code: Select all

Infraction Points        Period Banned from Message Board 
     5 points                        1 week 
     10 points                       2 weeks 
     15 points                       1 month  

Infraction                              Infraction Points            Expires
Inappropriate Content                        5                       12 months 
Personal Information                         5                       12 months 
Harassment/Rudeness                          5                       12 months 
Outside Links/Email Address                  5                       12 months 
Spamming                                     1                       1 month 
Chatting                                     1                       1 month 
Posting Copyrighted Information              1                       1 month

So you can see from this that only moderators can give you infraction points so no need to worry that someone will give you negative points just because they don't like you. There is a 'report this post' button for anyone who thinks your post is abusive in some way to send your post to all the moderators to check out.

I know how to control it.
So may I explain how Infraction works.

You typed in bad words(for an example).
Someone reports you.
The Mod is in and wanted to check if the report is true or false.
It's true.
So a mod can give you a infraction of a reason.
The example reason here is: Harmful words
If the infraction point is 1,then you will receive a PM about it and your infraction points will be +1.
Now there's a automatic ban.
The automatic ban will work if you typed harmful words 10 times.
BUT you can still be good so your infraction points won't go up to 10.
Because the Infraction points will expire.
If the infraction point 1 will expire in 1 month.
So you have been good,and the infraction points will expire and your infraction points will -1.


@monica:You can set whenever you want the points to be shown to regular members OR NOT.This is up to MS.

BTW The Infraction progess is based on vBulletin.

@Salin:What about the kids here have a very poor english knowledge?I can't understand them totally.I can still guess some posts(Like Pat's one) though.

[Salin]

@Salin:What about the kids here have a very poor english knowledge?I can't understand them totally.I can still guess some posts(Like Pat's one) though.

Neither can I, so may I suggest you do what I do? Ignore it, or try to ask; Is this what you mean?

[Lutz]

Ignore it, or try to ask

Inger, That's what I would do. But I guess this requires some maturity.

Other people are picking on non-mother-language-english speakers like this:

I will teach you after you have learned proper english.
Or else your friends will have a headache.

Not a very nice way to treat younger forum members. Especially not when one's own language skills are far from perfect.

English is not my first language either and it sure was crap when I started posting here. But I hope it has improved during the last 3 years.
This board is a good opportunity to learn this crazy language and everyone - no matter how young or old - should get the chance to do so.

A bit more tolerance would be good - not only concerning on how good one's English is.


Now back to the topic: Wonderland forum.

I mainly use the forum to download RTW levels (sometimes I post one myself) and to give my thanks to the level makers.
If you keep this I would be satisfied. Don't care if there's a silly-section or a WA:MOFI-part or whatever. If I'm not interested in something I don't have to go there.
But I don't want this forum become a game-only-forum. There should be place for some small-talk, some socialising.
In the end it's your playground, Patrick, and you won't find a solution all are cheering to.

[Mahaloof]

Hi Patrick,

I haven't been around much lately, but I do keep an eye on the Forum. Periodically, I drift away from Wonderland (I enjoy many types of computergames) and at some point come back with a renewed hunger for playing people's levels and creating a few of my own.
Wonderland is simply the best puzzle game in the world.

As for the functioning of the Forum:

- an improved system to search for levels would really be a great enhancement.

- I'm not in favour of making access to this Forum more public. It would make it much more difficult to keep things civil here. It seems a lot of people don't know how to behave on the internet. (However, I do think that Wonderland itself should reach a much larger audience. It would be well-deserved. Then, more players would trickle in here, because they actually bought the game).

- The Off-topic Forum may have been the location of a few ugly 'scenes', it also has been a spot of great joy. I fondly remember our "Who's-House-Is-This" competition, to name one. The picture gallery was great, the music thread, "Anything goes" and I even remember some sort of honeymoon story going on at one point.
So, to remove all that and only focus on level-related content also makes spontaneous outbursts like the above-mentioned impossible.

And finally:

A bit more tolerance would be good - not only concerning on how good one's English is.

I think Lutz has a very good point here...

[J Bale]

I like to download almost all levels and love them all even the ones I can't get. I have all Wonderland games and even though I am a lurker I have had a couple questions on things and have always had a response and help from the forum. I guess I didn't realize there was a problem with anyone, after all it is a game. There is a lot of great custom levels and a lot of talented people making them. I would be very leary of going to other websites concerning this game afterall this is the origin of the game.
Thanks for everything
Judy B[/b]

[tyteen4a03]

(removed by MS for getting personal)

[popo]

(snip snip by MS)


I've just had another thought. Would it be possible to block PM's from members we don't want them from, like we can block emails? That way if someone is sending you loads of unwanted PM's you can control it.

[tyteen4a03]

(snip)

[Marinus]

(snipped out specific examples by MS)

I think a system with Moderators, guidelines and points (+ and -) can work, but I think it's almost impossible to make a rule for every possible situation.


What about, if there's someone still overloading the forum space, and the space on the computerscreen of the other forummembers, by:
- still posting such very long posts, posting FULL quotes of everyone else so sometimes there is not even space enough for everything,
- without saying him/herself nothing more then senseless things like: Umm.(what should I say?) LOL! ,
- or still repeating the same cliches?
So actually using lots of space but saying nothing.

Will there be a rule for? How many Infraction Points will there be for that?


What about, if there's someone, secretly behind otherones backs, sending PM's to other people, suggesting to ruin this forum, replacing it by another one and offering them jobs as moderator.

Will there be a rule for? How many Infraction Points will there be for that?


What about, if someone keeps telling bad thing about other people in his/her posts and signature, and then, just before Patrick wakes up, edits the posts, changes the signature and says hypocritical:
"If someone is mad at my sig,I am sorry for that.
Removed."

Will there be a rule for? How many Infraction Points will there be for that?

What about, if there's someone who still keeps calling other people on this forum "evil ones" no matter in normal letter-size or in size=0

I didn't look for examples. I believe most example were in the "Anything goes" and are deleted by the admin. One example is still in the PM above although there are no names mentioned.

Will there be a rule for? How many Infraction Points will there be for that?


Patrick, I agree with you, it's not good to personal attack someone.

if I had listened to "majority rule" on banning in the past, then a lot of people currently active would have been long gone.

Maybe you're right, but I'm also sure that lots of worthfull forummembers have gone due to things I mentioned above. So I suggest to think carefully about this. If you want those people to come back you really have to do something! I don't say you have to ban such person immediately, but maybe it's good to give such person a very very serious warning to make sure he/she keeps very quiet in future, and, just in case such person is a 12 year old boy, to let him and his brain grow up a little more before he starts to interfere with adults matters again.

Finally, one last thing about this negative matters, the 1000 Euro question:

If you got mad of someone,you have just fallen into his trap.

Who is to blame more, the one who gets mad, or the one who made the trap?


And then about the positive points. Unfortunately the good things are always shorter to tell then the negative ones. I think positive points are also a good idea maybe. So I like to give at least Lutz and Mahaloof positive points for their posts. If the scale goes from 0 to 9, I think about a ten or maybe e(le)ven. But there are many more people who posted good things but I didn't read everything here very carefully and beside that, I don't know how to divide all those points.

Anyhow, Kiki says: " Carry on! "