Issue #3 Feedback

Discussion related to the Midnight Synergy newsletter.
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popo
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Post by popo » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:44 am

Robbie I love your doodles. Can't we start a 'doodle corner' just for things like this. :D :D
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Post by Robbie » Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:37 am

#400!... now I'll have to change my sig... :roll:

Just something fun to check out for the weekend!

I came across this adventure/rpg game that's definitely worth the download. It's in Japanese (which is a bit of a bummer) so there's a little bit of trial and error.

To get you started you'll need to chat with the 2 guards then see a guy in the top left house - it seems to get the guards to let you pass.

There's a number of elements that could be useful. Of particular note are the graphics which are tile based while not restricting movement from 1 tile to the next - as Patrick mentioned in the newsletter.

It's a lot of fun (& it's freeware) - and just 5 megs which expands out to nearly 40 megs.

goto
http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA025956/
and click on the top download link - file will be gd_ver100.zip (5.20meg)

Robbie :D

PS If anyone can read Japanese, a translation would be great!

I know it may seem off topic but it may provide some inspiration.

Made a little progress...
just some clues

a. some puzzles require a couple of stone blocks (each can be numbered 1-4 (by hitting them)
- first code is
44
- second code is
344
- third code is (clockwise from top left)
1423
b. if you are stuck at the 2 houses with a couple of bugs & don't seem to be getting anywhere...
make sure you have collected 4 bugs, it seems the one guy with no bugs in his backyard wants more than the neighbour
c. some gates are pretty tough to get through & you need to hold down 2 switches...
you might need to use the 3rd green element which uses 3MP & is the heaviest - required to activate the switch. As soon as you throw it on race to the other & stand on it.
Have completed about 4 bosses now, just received swimming ability - if you are stuck up to this point PM me.

Robbie 8)
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Post by wonderland01 » Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:54 am

I don't like the mouse control idea
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Post by Liz Mayhew » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:09 am

I'd prefer a gamepad to a mouse. Far more control possibilities there.
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Post by Loirae » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:50 am

Just read Robbie's novel. All the way thru i was thinking you were describing one of my other favorite games, "Kingdom Hearts" with the exception of the battle set up. It has most of the features you're talking about (probably because it's an RPG and they tend to be similar), but you pretty much described it dead-on.

I also love the future concept idea of people playing the same game. There are many members on this forum that are posting back and forth or PMing back and forth quickly. almost like delayed chat. Sometimes we're in the mood to play, sometimes to chat. Having a scetion/world/city area where players can socialize in real time would be fun, too.

On a similar note, i used to play "Maple Story" (but got sidetracked by Wonderland :lol: :lol: ) and there was a set up where you could create a "party" to hunt baddies for experience points. In regular battle you'd get, for example, 5 points for a Kaboom!. In a party, the one who actually kills it gets 3 points, the other party member gets 2. Seems sad to not get as many points, but the upside is you can get rid of them twice as fast because two people are working on it. Then both people get experience instead of accidentally stealing each other's points. And really hard to defeat baddies fall easier with two people taking shots at it.

The down side of Maple Story was it was all about killing baddies. No puzzle element at all. If you applied the "party" aspect to wonderland and puzzle solving, people who work together on a puzzle would share the points, and also be able to complete more puzzles faster.
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Post by paulm12 » Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:08 pm

The new wonderland sounds a lot like Ruinscape
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Post by wonderland01 » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:58 pm

Liz Mayhew wrote:I'd prefer a gamepad to a mouse. Far more control possibilities there.
I would still perfer arrow keys
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y

Post by szai14 » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:48 pm

i would perfer arow keys too
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Post by Midnight Synergy » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:39 pm

Hi folks,

just poppin’ in with another mini-update (I’ll probably do these on this thread from time to time, with larger updates with more substantial news in newsletter issues). I will also not comment too much on people’s suggestions, mostly to avoid “steering” the discussion too much. I want, after all, to hear what you folks think.

A few quick comments today:

(1) Robbie - I love the look of your sketches, you have real talent there! Lots of neat idea in your treatise. I do feel the need to point out to others that Robbie’s design is really just his own - I ain’t tellin’ yet if it at all comes close to where I’m taking the game. Speculations such as “the new Wonderland sounds like Runescape” is really just speculation... and might be waaay off base. ;)

(2) One point - I cannot really see “combat” as being part of the new game - that just doesn’t feel like Wonderland to me. While the game will have some RPG elements, Stinky slicing open Kaboom!s with a broadsword will not be one of them. ;)

(3) Regarding some people’s concern about changing the Wonderland they know and love - everything from mouse control to RPG elements. The new game is not meant to replace the “classic” trilogy, which will continue to exist, be supported, and expanded upon. Rather, think of the new game as adding another way to play in Wonderland - side-by-side with the “classic” trilogy. So no worries, nothing is being lost. Since some of the basic gameplay mechanics of the new game are quite different from the classic games, not everyone will prefer or even like the new game, but that’s just the nature of the beast. Wonderland, if I may say so myself ;), was a real success in balancing complexity and playability. It’s a little scary venturing away from the tried-and-true, but I’m very excited about the potential of the new mechanics. Here’s hoping lightning will strike twice and that players will embrace the new game as well.

That’s all for today... I’ll do another update in a week. The theme of that update will be “Give and Take”, and I promise another screenshot.

Cheers!
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Post by theZBot » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:04 pm

paulm12 wrote:The new wonderland sounds a lot like Ruinscape
I hate Runescape!
popo wrote:Perhaps it could be called Wonderland - The Next Generation
Or maybe Return to Wonderland Secret Worlds!
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boxes

Post by paulm12 » Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:31 am

Do we still get to use the boxes for puzzle-sokban levels?
I love the "puzzle-box-levels" mixed with action. :lol:
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Post by popo » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:36 am

Midnight Synergy wrote:I cannot really see “combat” as being part of the new game - that just doesn’t feel like Wonderland to me. While the game will have some RPG elements, Stinky slicing open Kaboom!s with a broadsword will not be one of them. ;)
Whew!! I'm glad about that. I was cringing at the thought of having to take up kick boxing lessons. :wink: :lol:
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Post by mette » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:05 pm

Midnight Synergy wrote:The new game is not meant to replace the “classic” trilogy, which will continue to exist, be supported, and expanded upon.
Phew :) In that case I have a request for a future update on RTWP: Is it possible to adjust the position of the pushable cannons on the tile, so it looks like it's not halfway up on the tile above from where it actually is?
And also: Is it possible to have custom textures with 3 different "break" floors corresponding to 1, 2 and 3 step bridges?

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Post by paulm12 » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:19 am

Midnight Synergy wrote: ...Rpg elimants, Stinky slicing kabooms with a broadsword will not be one of them

THAT WAS SO FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:lol: :lol:
By the way, Does the new Wonderland come with Levels?(Probably Yes)
Is it an upgrade like deluxe or platnum or is it something I have to buy for twentysix million bucks(Joke)
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Post by Robbie » Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:18 am

Sorry, no sketches today... busy here as usual (end of the month accounts in front of me to do) - but hopefully plenty to think about in the notes following :D

And as Patrick mentioned, these are just some personal thoughts.

New Actions
Kick
I know what you're thinking... couldn't do any hitting, now he wants to kick things :?: Somethings gotten into Robbie (use to be such a nice boy :wink: )
Useful for kicking open boxes (reveal treasure inside) - kicking bombs over a couple of squares (see Special Items for more on this)
Jump
Like it says, the ability to jump... (see Special Items for more on this)
Swim
Ability to swim providing you have the right equipment.
Carry
I'd still like to be able to put things in a bag (see previous page) but it would be great to be able to carry things over your head either to move them out of the way & place them somewhere else - ie rocks, bombs (think Bomberman), barrells or vases (think Zelda) & either place them down or throw them - to either hit an enemy (kaboom or the like) or to place in a position at a distance. Breaking open vases/barrells could reveal gold (for buying things) or items to be picked up.


Other Stuff
Plants
Add some water & plants could either reward you with information/gold/items (pop out of revived plant) or placed next to a wall could grow to enable you to climb up the wall to reach another area.

Watering Can
Stored in pouch, used to water plants etc, refill automatically when you are beside a pool of water.

Bombs
(Previously mentioned) Come in different strengths (different colour/different visual appearance) with varying degrees of blast area. Either picked up or purchased at a store - more power, higher cost. Select from pouch & carry above head - either placed or thrown.
Could have a set amount of time when placed or thrown before going off (within that time maybe it could be picked up again safely). Could be another bomb type which is set off by remote control.

Rocks
Used by level creator to block areas from access. Removed by more powerful bomb or by special Gloves (see below)

Water Gun
An optional 'weapon' like the water can stored in pouch & requires refilling - used against kabooms (by putting out their fuses) - limited water storage to say 5 or 6 squirts.

Ghost Buster Style Gun
For sucking up Ghosts & Rainbow Spirits... just a thought that popped in.

Special Items
- to be found in chests or sold in stores at high prices.
Gloves
- Giant Gloves - for picking up heavy objects like rocks
- Thief Gloves - for steeling coins from monsters/picking locked chests.
Boots
- Winged Boots - jump higher
- Iron Boots - walking on pool/river (etc) floor
- Roadrunner (?) Boots - move faster
- David Beckham Boots (??) - kick things further/harder
Snorkle/Floaties (sorry I know this has many meanings but I'm thinking of the floatation devices for small kids)
- for Swimming along surface of water
Scuba Gear
- for use with Iron Boots to access things deep down in the water. Maybe you could even place caves/tunnels at the sea floor which open up to new areas...

Light Sources
For darkened areas - candle, lamp, torch, lantern - various degrees of usability/duration/strength

Block Reward
I was just thinking of a Mario styled block - say with the no. 3 on all sides - kick it & coin/tickets/bomb/ladder pops out; sides change to no.2, kick again the same thing, sides change to no.1, kick it again & something pops out, become a regular pushable block after that.
Block contents either random or set by level creator (to meet the need of a particular puzzle in the area)

New Enemies
Fireball Breathing Statue
Similar to Cannons currently in game only they rotate to fire at where you are standing - destroyed by Water Gun or big Rock
Fake Chest
Looks like a regular chest (maybe a little different). When you walk up next to it it stands up & walks after you (slower). When you are say 2 or 3 steps away from it it sets back down & goes to sleep...( :? )
Kick it with Iron Boots to destroy it - gold reward to pick up.

Stores
I still like the idea of having stores to buy things. Gold to be found in chests/laying around/in Plants/in Reward Blocks/Vases etc can be converted at stores (with inventory & prices set by level creator) for things like bombs/tickets/ladder parts/lighting sources/other Boots/Gloves etc or other things that make it into the game.

Controls
I'd like the option of either or (or both) as far as controls go. Maybe an option to set keys for different actions. Some mice are a little unwieldy to control. I prefer the basic Logitech trackball mouse which is brilliant (& cheap) & may work well in game but some might be having to move the whole mouse around...

Anyway, back to everyone else...

Robbie :D
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Post by paulm12 » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:18 am

New Enimy: Coin Guarder
It's the same as the bullies on krabby quest

New Poewerup: Invisibility, with it chompers can't see you for 10sec.Niether can coin guarders

Another New powerup: Stop Time, For a short time you can stop time; but you push boulders like boxes, sticky cubes don't stick when you push 'em together, link speres you push like boxes,(the "Link" part is inactive)

New Elimante: Lazers, like Scorgues, But a continues beam,

New Elimante: Meatal Prisims like prisisms, but you can use them more than once( I don't know how they work)
New Elimante: Activate botton, It eithor gives you a coin anomaticly, opens a coulored gate, or opens an exit gate or gives you a bounus or time or other stuff like teliporting you to another part of the level, or regretful things like a hord of chompers. activate by sending a lazor or Scourge shot

New Elimante: fire, you die if you touch it you can find an extinguisher to put it out and you refill by sucking up CERTAIN parts of water
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Post by Robbie » Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:03 am

...

Life Meter
If the game takes on board some of the suggestions listed & in particular multiple areas within a level, would it make sense to incorporate some sort of life meter system?

For regular size Wonderland type levels the one zap & it's game over scenario doesn't present too much of a problem (generally) but if the size/duration/complexity of levels is going to increase possibly significantly there would be a greater reliance on a save feature – reducing any challenge of a level.

Whether you use Zelda type hearts or some other system I guess is open to debate. Maybe the size of the Life Meter can be set by the level creator.

Taking the Zelda system as an example, maybe a level creator can have the option of placing heart pieces to either replenish the Life Meter or increase it. Replenishing pieces possibly can be placed lying around, in boxes, in stores for purchase. Life Meter increasing pieces might be rewards contained in chests after completing a certain puzzle or accessing a new area…

Effectively, rather than getting killed instantly, you get so many chances per se.

Saving
I don't know whether this is a good idea or not - probably only really useful for levels are linear in their layout which is usually not too many. Have the option of a checkpoint type system... or maybe not. Maybe just be able to save wherever you are - is there an option Pat of being able to save to a file name which will open back say from the main menu - to that level at that point.

Ways of Getting Gold
Just a thought, when Kabooms & the like are destroyed, maybe in their place can be left gold coins… more or less depending on the difficulty associated with the various baddies – ie a spaceship might leave behind 4 or 5 coins, a coily 1 coin, a mother ship say 15 or 20 coins…

Coinage
Again I don’t know if this line of thinking will go the way of the broadsword but anyway… maybe Coins could be of different colour depending on their value. For example Gold coin=1, green coin=5 gold coins, blue=10 etc etc so rather than having say 20 coins appear scattered about after defeating a mothership, a couple of blue ones appear or another colour representing 20…

Other Ramblings
I don’t know how everyone else feels but I’d like to see a little more leeway as far as options for dispatching the bad dudes rather than just spiking, zapping or pushing things over them. Something a little more pro-active.

Again I think it would make the experience a little more rewarding if there was something to pick up after defeating an enemy. Something useable like coins for use in purchasing something else that could be used…

Not knowing what’s in the pipeline as far as MS thoughts go, maybe if there are some particularly bad enemies that are hard to get rid of, rather than just coins, maybe a chest could be left in their place which could contain either a big lot of coins or a special item.

Hope it doesn’t sound like I’m trying to make Wonderland unrecognizable. The basic premise is still there & should be, but being a new game I think the envelope deserves pushing a bit more & as Pat said – think BIG!

Robbie
:D
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Post by Muzozavr » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:26 pm

eatable box. Can be eaten :lol: then used anywhere in the level.
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Post by paulm12 » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:08 am

You mesn like inflatible boxes in fizzlewizzle?
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Beta

Post by paulm12 » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:11 am

Can I beta test or have a beta verstion? :cry: Please :cry: :cry:
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Post by Muzozavr » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:18 am

Me too!! :lol:
Yes i mean inflatable boxes. But "eatable" sounds much funnier. :lol:
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yhah

Post by paulm12 » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:35 am

I have to admit you're right "eating" boxes,we don't want Grubby Games sueing Patrick you know...
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Post by lwijsbroek » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:43 pm

do not mak it to difficult, *I totaly agree with JG , it should be fun and playable, also for "slow minds and fingers", otherwise a lot of people will stop playing, at the moment it is already about 75% what can be finished without giving solutions, some people like giving solutions in a some denegrating way, sorry I feel it this way, and I hate this, sorry I write it the way I feel it, I wish I could wright it in Dutch so I can make myself much clearer. But this is the way I feel :evil: :x :x
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Post by Gen » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:17 pm

lwijsbroek wrote:do not mak it to difficult, *I totaly agree with JG , it should be fun and playable, also for "slow minds and fingers", otherwise a lot of people will stop playing, at the moment it is already about 75% what can be finished without giving solutions, some people like giving solutions in a some denegrating way, sorry I feel it this way, and I hate this, sorry I write it the way I feel it, I wish I could wright it in Dutch so I can make myself much clearer. But this is the way I feel :evil: :x :x
janetgalle wrote:One of the many reasons I love Wonderland is its "playability", as it is now, I am unable to comprehend/complete/enjoy many of the new levels because they are just too complex/frustrating. I guess I am saying don't make the "new" version so complicated/high-tech that the fun will go out of it for us slow fingered (minded?) players. :)
Lwijsbroek, I agreed with JG earlier and I agree with you now. I am also having trouble finishing most of the current levels in RTWP. I am to the point of giving up. It is not that I am a novice, I have been playing now for over 2 years (over 4700 custom levels completed and all of Wonderland, RTW, all but one level of RTWD and most of SW) with no trouble until the Platinum edition came out. I have asked the level makers for spoilers and many willing give them. However, I am tired of having to ask of help on almost all the levels. The fun have been taken out of for me. If the new game is anything like Platinum, you can count me out. Where is the fun when there is nothing but frustration?
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Post by Muzozavr » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:36 pm

I know it's another idea from Fizzwizzle, but it will satisfy all of us. :D
For those who like normal difficulity levels, create a normal levelset.
For those who love stinkers-thinkers (like me, they are taking me a long time, but I'm enjoying them) create a hard levelset.

And also, since we don't know the new objects, cretae a Tutorial levelset. It's the only thing which can be disappealing in Wonderland -- it DOES take a while to get used to everything and "fall in trap". Someone could exit a little too quick without it.
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Post by Robbie » Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:58 pm

I agree 100% that there's plenty of levels that are pretty tough - some I just look at & think :shock:

But at the same time I think that level complexity falls back on the level creators, not necessarily the program itself - a point proved by the fact that there are so many enjoyable & playable levels. In years gone by there have been some games produced (especially combat/flight sim) that required you to remember nearly every key on the keyboard just to play the game.

There's certainly a balance that needs to be struck, but do you reduce the options available to level creators for the sake of simplicity & if so do you run the risk of levels looking & playing the same & enjoyment wearing our quickly? Do you make it so much like the original that it's pointless upgrading?
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Post by Midnight Synergy » Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:29 pm

Hello again,

Time for another wee update from me.

First, though, to answer some questions:

Difficulty: I expect this game to be a lot easier than current Platinum levels. But comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges, as it’s a completely new game with a whole new skill-set. (And hence the game will start off very easy, and very gradually introduce the new bits and pieces). I also plan to put in lots of optional parts of the game - this is where I expect to see the more challenging levels (for those that crave the mindbenders).

Beta Testers, etc: No plans for this are set yet, but we’re still faaaar away from even thinking about it. There’s still so much to do, first!

Give and Take
When the new game does get released there are bound to be a lot of comparisons between this one and the “classic” trilogy. Those of you still expecting the new game to be “like Wonderland, only more” will be surprised (I don’t want to say “disappointed”, as I hope it will actually be a very pleasant surprise). Many (if not most) of the things you are used to doing in the classic Wonderland will have slight or major changes in the new game.

For example, teleporters will function differently: once entered, the teleporter turns off, and you appear in the center of the target position - not, as in the classic Wonderland, continuing to move in the current direction. Hence classic Wonderland puzzle designs might not be possible (those that required you to enter a teleporter from the correct direction). However, turning teleporters on and off (via buttons, for examples) opens completely new possibilities. Place an object on a disabled teleporter, then switch it on to warp the object across the level. Or wait until a monsters enters a teleporter location to activate it and transport the monster!

This is just an example of a comparable element in the games. Many (if not most) elements will in fact have no comparison in the “classic” games. Things such as meeting and conversing with other Wonderland characters or carrying and using objects. Even “box pushing” will look different in the new game (more on that much later). ;)

So there’ll be a lot of give and take in functionality when forcing a comparison between the two sets of games. Trying to make levels that function just like in the old games will likely not be possible... but then again, what would be the point of making a new game, if it’s just like the old game, right? ;)

(silence)

Right???

:D

Since I did promise a screenshot, here’s a pic of what the in-progress editor looks like (obviously still very rough).

(apologies if this isn't very meaty news... it's still very early and slow going)
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Post by ben-09 » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:35 am

here are two of my ideas,wooden boulders(thay float on water and do not plow through wooden boxes).super glasses(with them x tiles appear as walls for ten seconds) :D
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Post by Muzozavr » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:15 am

Mine idea would be a steel boulder. It smashes everything except walls and steel boulders. Very heavy, needs four (!) to create a bridge.
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stuff

Post by paulm12 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:38 am

First, I want to complament Patrick with his AMAZING :shock: :shock: :shock: picture!!!

How 'bout a boulder-box! it has three sides as a boulder, and one as a box! Puzzle: You have to ajust it so it lands on the "box" side- otherwise it will sink! Stinker Rating: 6/10

Beach ball: Floats, rolls like a boulder, and doesn't crush stinkers in it's path.
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