One of the weirdest pieces of math trivia ever

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One of the weirdest pieces of math trivia ever

Post by Muzozavr » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:43 pm

I know it's true.
I know the proof.
And I can't accept it.

It's against everything I ever knew (or THOUGHT that knew) about math.
Yeah, true mathematicians already know what's coming up and got over it. Others... beware.

0.9999999999... is exactly equal to 1.

Note, that 0.9999999999... is a periodic fraction, that is: the actual amount of nines is infinite. Any finite amount of nines won't equal to 1.

But make them infinite, make the fraction a periodic one, and suddenly it's completely equal to 1.

Proof:

Let's define x as this 0.999999...., then:

x=0.99999....
10x=9.99999....
10x-x=9.99999....-0.99999....=9x=9
9x=9
x=1

Therefore, as x was defined as 0.99999... it means that 0.99999... is exactly equal to 1. It isn't different by an "infinitesimal" it simply is EQUAL to 1.

I know it's true.
I know the proof.
And I'm still wrecking my brain trying to comprehend this.

Science is evil. :shock:
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Post by Marinus » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:25 pm

Well I have no problem with it actually :D

1/0 = <infinite> and 1/<infinite>=0
(I believe there was a sign for <infinite>, an 8 on its side but I can't find that)
0.00000(infinite numer of 0's)0001=0
If you take a hyperbool and the line comes closer and closer to the X or Y axis in the infinity the line will touch the axis.

Of course it happens not real but that's because infinity not really exists
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Post by popo » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:32 pm

Marinus wrote:(I believe there was a sign for <infinite>, an 8 on its side but I can't find that)
Do you mean this one? &#8734; :wink:

The rest of it is going right over my head. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's mathematics. :lol:
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Post by Marinus » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:46 pm

Yes, thanks, that's what I meant, but I'm not sure if it's a complete close line, or open at the end just like an S on its side, or in a mirror-image.

But I was looking in Microsoft Word for "insert a symbol" and couldn't find it. How do you get such sign?

And math is not always only just science, sometimes it's also a bit of imagination. If you take a picture of a straight motorway, then in the end the border will come together /\ but they don't really :D
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Post by popo » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:09 pm

Marinus wrote:But I was looking in Microsoft Word for "insert a symbol" and couldn't find it. How do you get such sign?
Click Start, Accessories, System Tools, Character Map. Then in 'Ariel' font, scroll down till you find it, it's next to the check mark. Then select it, click copy, and in your message click paste, and there it is. :D
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Post by Muzozavr » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:32 pm

To Marinus:

Well, first of all, your way of seeing things means it's a limit, meaning it TRIES to become 1, but will only do so in infinte time.

As far as I know, in this case, it's not true.
A function can strive to a limit, but a number itself can never, ever be a limit. Numbers can't strive to BECOME a number, because a number itself never changes. They're either equal or not equal, they can't be "equal after infinite time". Functions can change and can have a limit.

There's one other proof that's on a higher level, but easier to explain, and also doesn't involve confusion with limits:

It's a proven fact that between any two different real numbers you can find another real number. (real=rational+irrational) What is the real number between 0.9999... and 1?

It can't be 0.999999....8.... since it either means being finite, or being a "lesser" infinity than 0.99999....
There is no real number between 0.9999... and 1, which means that they're exactly equal.



Yikes... A few posts and we already start *deep* discussions... :shock: :o :shock:
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Post by Marinus » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:14 pm

Thanks Pauline, I found it, but I didn't know the term "check mark". I call it a square-root mark (but that's also math) 8)

Muzo, it's almost 25 years ago that I had lessons in this kind of stuff, so I don't remember exactly the meaning of math-terms and special signs, but I'll do my best.

-1, You say it's hard to imagine that 0.9999999....... = 1
but, do you have any problems with 1/3=0.33333333....?

-2, Am I right that rational numbers means: with an end (0.9999) and irrational: without an end? (0.99999..............)

-3, Never mind about that term; In my opinion the (real irrational?) number, "0.99999999......." is also a function to a limit:
&#931; 9 * 10^-n (for n=1 to &#8734; step 1)

Sorry if I'm not using the correct math-notation but some Basic computer language 8)
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Post by popo » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:20 pm

Ya know? You two could be talking Martian for all the sense it makes to me. :lol: My brain hurts. :oops:
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Post by Marinus » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:32 pm

Well actually it's easy :D

About 1, if you take a calculator and type in 1/3 it says: 0.333333 as long as the screen is. To display the whole number, you need an infinite screen.

Never mind about 2, it's just terms and definitions

About 3, If you take the sum:
9/10 + 9/100 + 9/1000 + 9/10000 +......etc. etc. and you keep doing that until eternity, the answer is 1 8) :lol: :D
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Post by Lucky-Luc » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:32 pm

Hmm... I thought about it, and what seems to be a quite understandable solution is the following: The difference between both numbers is 0.00000..., and it always goes on like that, because you can always add another 9 to 0.99999... . So the difference is 0 which means that both numbers must have the excact same value => they are the same numbers.

Marinus, about 2: Rational numbers are all numbers that you can write as a fraction, so periodic numbers are rational, too (0.333=1/3 for example). Irrational numbers are for example the square root of 2 or pi.

When we're already talking about strange maths, do you know this?
Wikipedia wrote:In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100 feet. If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time, Achilles will have run 100 feet, bringing him to the tortoise's starting point. During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter distance, for example 10 feet. It will then take Achilles some further time to run that distance, in which time the tortoise will have advanced farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the tortoise has already been--he can never overtake the tortoise.
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Post by Muzozavr » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:35 pm

Marinus wrote:Thanks Pauline, I found it, but I didn't know the term "check mark". I call it a square-root mark (but that's also math) 8)

Muzo, it's almost 25 years ago that I had lessons in this kind of stuff, so I don't remember exactly the meaning of math-terms and special signs, but I'll do my best.

-1, You say it's hard to imagine that 0.9999999....... = 1
but, do you have any problems with 1/3=0.33333333....?

Not very, but when you think about it that way, it does become shady. I simply prefer not to think of it like that. :D

The breakdown comes from the fact that integers can be fractions. Combined with the nonexistent seeming difference makes this pure evil. :o


-2, Am I right that rational numbers means: with an end (0.9999) and irrational: without an end? (0.99999..............)

Irrational are the numbers without an end and which are non-peridoic(do not repeat). Pi is an irrational number because it never repeats. 0.99999... and 0.23232323... aren't.

-3, Never mind about that term; In my opinion the (real irrational?) number, "0.99999999......." is also a function to a limit:
&#931; 9 * 10^-n (for n=1 to &#8734; step 1)
Could you explain what the &#931; symbol means?

Sorry if I'm not using the correct math-notation but some Basic computer language 8)
Comments are in bold.

popo: I wish I could find a nice picture of weird alien-looking symbols, but my googling skills suck.
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Post by Marinus » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:43 pm

Thank you both for the answer on 2. Slowly things are coming back. :D

I was thinking the &#931; (Sigma) is a correct math symbol, and it means the sum of all together (9E-1 + 9E-2 + 9E-3 + .... etc.)

Lucas is it also in Dutch on Wiki?

EDIT: Nevermind I found it.

Muzo, I'm not sure if that was the right notation with the sigma symbol. Maybe it had to be "lim"
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Post by mqdar » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:05 pm

I found this thread a bit surprising to read, because I've already (quite a while ago now) looked it up on Wikipedia.

So... we know that 0.999... is not equal to 0.999...9.

x = 0.999...
10x = 9.999... - If this was, for example, 0.999, then it would now be 9.99, but infinity doesn't become shorter.
...................
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Post by Marinus » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:03 pm

mqdar wrote:So... we know that 0.999... is not equal to 0.999...9.
Darshan, I don't know what you mean with that. I think it is equal!

0.999... is 0. <infinite number of 9s>
0.999...9 is 0. <(infinite + 1) number of 9s>

and infinite + 1 is still infinite, so it's the same. Beside that, you say: If this was, for example, 0.999, then it would now be 9.99, but infinity doesn't become shorter. So &#8734;=&#8734;+1=&#8734;-1
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Post by mqdar » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:23 pm

Marinus wrote:
mqdar wrote:So... we know that 0.999... is not equal to 0.999...9.
Darshan, I don't know what you mean with that. I think it is equal!

0.999... is 0. <infinite number of 9s>
0.999...9 is 0. <(infinite + 1) number of 9s>

and infinite + 1 is still infinite, so it's the same. Beside that, you say: If this was, for example, 0.999, then it would now be 9.99, but infinity doesn't become shorter. So &#8734;=&#8734;+1=&#8734;-1
0.999... is infinite.
0.999...9 is NOT infinite. If there could be a last nine, then it would not be infinity.

&#8734; + 1 and &#8734; - 1 are invalid, aren't they?
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Post by Marinus » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:55 pm

mqdar wrote:&#8734; + 1 and &#8734; - 1 are invalid, aren't they?
I don't know what's the best way to explain right now. :?
Let's say: compared to a very, very, very big real number like 10^100000000000000000000000, 1 is still 1

But compared to &#8734;, (which is not a real number, infinity doesn't really exist) 1 is nothing.
So &#8734; +1 = &#8734; +<any real number>= &#8734; + 10 = &#8734;
Infinity is just an idea, an imagination, which not really exists, but just in case it should exist, then everything that's finite is zero.

Math is just like philosophy 8)
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Post by Muzozavr » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:35 am

So, if I'm right, then your function can change value depending on n.
Functions can have limits. Their values can't.
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Post by Marinus » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:03 am

Sorry that I don't know the correct notation. I'll try to explain with my own words.

In this case n is not a variable in the way that you can choose what number is n. You simply have to calculate the function for every possible number n from 1 to &#8734; and then take the sum of all those solutions.

Let's first take the function: f1(x)=x *10^-n or f1(x)=xE(-n)
n is not a variable, let's say it's a constant, by example 2
then for x=3,x=6 or x=9; f1(x)=0.03, f1(x)=0.06 or f1(x)=0.09

Now we make a new function: f2(x) is the sum of all possible solutions of f1(x) for n=1 to n=4 (if I'm right, for that sum thing the &#931; sign is used)
then for x=3, 6 or 9; f2(x)=0.3333, 0.6666 or 0.9999

But in this case it's not about n=1 to 4, but it should be n=1 to &#8734; (I think then it's called a limit, for it goes to &#8734;)

Then we have a function f3(x), what's the sum of all possible solutions of f1(x) for n=1 to &#8734;
Then for:
x=3; f3(x)=0.33333333333......=1/3
x=6; f3(x)=0.66666666666......=2/3
x=9; f3(x)=0.99999999999......=3/3=1

So, the variable of the function is not n but it's x, and in the case of your "mathematical problem" the variable x is 9.
And again, I don't know the correct notations and terms, so I don't know how I have to call n in this case, but it's definitaly not just a variable.

We can also make a computerprogram to calculate this. And again, I'll probably make mistakes with the right notations, but I hope you'll understand what I mean.

Code: Select all

input or get x 'ask user to enter x &#40;=9&#41;
n=1
f3=0
do
   f1=x*10^-n
   f3=f3+f1
   n=n+1
loop until n=&#8734;
print or write f3 'put the answer on the screen
Now I can tell you a few things
1, The computer will not be able to calculate this, for it doesn't know what &#8734; means.
2, If the computer would know what that means, it would be working until eternity. (probably it would say: Memory acces violation 8))
3, If the computer was able to finish this program, it would say: 1 :D
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Post by Muzozavr » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:29 pm

Ah, so you mean the sum like 9/10+99/100+999/1000+... ad infinitum?

But it's a sum. The addition is an "action" (sorry don't really know that in english)

The row has a limit. That limit can be expressed as either 1, or 0.9999...
IIRC, you can't add or subtract anything from infinity though.

To Lucas: sorry that I didn't notice the post earlier.
Zeno's paradox is much harder to solve... no idea there. :D

EDIT: P.S. about the program you could just do an infinite cycle... I've forgotten the exact syntax, it's something like (while true); in C.
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Post by Marinus » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:29 pm

Ah, so you mean the sum like 9/10+99/100+999/1000+... ad infinitum?
I think you also mean that, but it's 9/10+9/100+9/1000+... (before the division sign it stays 9, not 99,999 etc.)
But it's a sum. The addition is an "action" (sorry don't really know that in english)
EXACTLY!! :D :D :D That's what I'm still trying to tell you. 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 (or 1) are real or rational numbers as they are used in math. But 0.333333.... , 0.66666666.... and 0.9999999.... are NOT! They are mathematical functions or actions how you ever may call them, which are approaching to a limit, the limit (n to infinity) and f3(x) to (x/9) in this case, with a real or rational number as result, but not numbers themself. As far as I know, they are NOT used in math as real number. In math you always use the fraction notation a/b but not the 0.9999999... notation though.
The row has a limit. That limit can be expressed as either 1, or 0.9999...
So in my opinion that limit can in mathematical notation only be expressed as 1.
IIRC, you can't add or subtract anything from infinity though.
Well, as long as infinity doesn't really exists, it doesn't matter though 8)
Zeno's paradox is much harder to solve... no idea there. :D
Actually that clever turtle is going to tell only a part of the story. And because he going to tell slower and slower, he never finishes. Almost the same as with 0.9999999.... with the limit 1, but now is the limit the moment that Achilles will pass the turtle.
With each next step in his story, the distance is 10 times smaller then in the previous step. But with the time happens the same. So in his story, he let time stand still at the moment they pass each other.
about the program you could just do an infinite cycle... I've forgotten the exact syntax, it's something like (while true); in C.
Yes that's right, but that was just not my intention. I think &#8734; doesn't really exists, but it exists only in our imagination. So in our imagination there will be a moment that n=&#8734;. At that moment the program will stop. But if we use the syntax [while true] the program will never stop, not even in our imagination 8) :D
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Post by Muzozavr » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:48 pm

So you were trying to tell me that numbers like 0.333.... don't exist.

Not true. :P
The number itself is NOT infinitely large or infinitely small, therefore by itself it's finite, even if it's WRITING (which is a different story) can be infinte. So they do exist.
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Post by Marinus » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:59 pm

OK maybe I said it wrong. Of course they do exist, but it's the question if they according to the rules of mathematics are called "real numbers" or a function, limit or whatever. At least to write them is an infinte story we both agree, so therfore we need a function with a limit. (an action) So in math they are not written that way, but just as a/b.
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Post by pie_or_cake » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:16 am

If 0.999999999....is equal to 1,then will 0.3333333 equal to 0.4?Curious.
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Post by Muzozavr » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:57 am

No, because 0.33333... is already equal to 1/3. It's easy to prove doing the long division.

It does mean however, that 2.9999... is 3, and 4.9999... is 5 and so on.
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Post by pie_or_cake » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:49 am

Muzozavr wrote:No, because 0.33333... is already equal to 1/3. It's easy to prove doing the long division.

It does mean however, that 2.9999... is 3, and 4.9999... is 5 and so on.
What will happen if 2.99999 + 4.999999
Will it be 8 or something else?
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Post by Muzozavr » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:01 pm

First of all, NEVER omit periods at the end of such fractions -- it's plain wrong.
Second, yes it will be 8.
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