When They Cry - Visual Novels (Higurashi/Umineko)

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:49 am

Right then... New topic!

Higurashi no Naku Koro ni - localized as "HIGURASHI When They Cry" - is a series of doujin sound/visual novels. It's a mystery series, and a very confusing one at that. It's also well known for getting pretty creepy and at times incredibly so.

There are a total of two series, each split into two halves:

1a) Higurashi no Naku Koro ni - The original. It's the "Mystery" half of Higurashi's story. It gives you all the questions but very, very few answers. As the author put it himself, there are some very important "keys" hidden throughout each novel (notably the manga), but there are many more fake keys to trick you along the way.

1b) Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Kai - The "Solutions" half of Higurashi's story (indeed, the title translates to "When the Higurashi Cry Solutions"). This one gives you the answers to the first half's arc, and ultimately - in an incredibly epic finale - the ending of the series. All the loose ends are accounted for, which is rather surprising (due to the high amount of them in the first half). All of it ends with an epic finale.

2a) Umineko no Naku Koro ni - The original half of the second series. Umineko is a type of Seagull. Instead of being as much about myths and legends as the first, it deals a logic game about witches. It's way more confusing (but not quite as scary, honestly - it gets rather ridiculous in fact). It's similar to the Ace Attorney series (if you've heard of that).

2b) Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - The "Breakdown" half of the second series, which is still being written (!). Instead of being the "Solutions" to all of the original's arcs, it delves deeper into the story, into the characters' pasts, and the cause and reaction to the events happening in the main story. There are 3 novels out of (presumably) 4 released.

The first three have also been turned into anime series, and they really emphasize on how violent the series is - indeed, it's well-known for its violence almost as much as its mystery factor.

Despite this, it's a great mystery series, but not one for the faint of heart or stomach.

Discuss, I guess.

^_^ · Post by **^_^** » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:51 am

Shouldn't this topic get moved?

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:54 am

... What? Do you mean the original topic?

If so, we're "taking things one step at a time" right now - so as to make sure things don't get out of hand before we're even started with the new off-topic area.

^_^ · Post by **^_^** » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:00 am

Qloof234 wrote:... What? Do you mean the original topic?

If so, we're "taking things one step at a time" right now - so as to make sure things don't get out of hand before we're even started with the new off-topic area.

Yes, the original one,
But i kinda disagree.
much people have been sitting in OLD offtopic, and were in stuff like this, other stuff.
New people probaly go post about Wonderland first, you know.

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:06 am

It's not my decision, it's MS's. If you want to discuss it, talk to MS about it, not me.

^_^ · Post by **^_^** » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:08 am

I'm just saying.

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:14 am

I'm not the one to say it to, MS is.

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:06 am

(Huge bump)

For anyone who cares, the eighth and final chapter of Umineko no Naku Koro ni has gotten a confirmed release date and name - Umineko Chiru Episode 4, "Twilight of The Golden Witch", is set for a December 31st release date in Japan.

I'm pumped, because this means an Umineko Chiru anime could potentially happen next year. Discuss.

TheoX · Post by **TheoX** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:47 pm

Even if the Umineko anime wasn't as good as the Higurashi one, I'm still looking forward to a second season!

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:06 pm

TheoX wrote:Even if the Umineko anime wasn't as good as the Higurashi one, I'm still looking forward to a second season!

Same here. I don't have much patience for visual novels and I still don't know why.

Also, how did I not notice this about Umineko before...

Eva.
Ange.
Lion.

I know Muzo's going to get it, my mind was blown after I noticed that.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:34 pm

Qloof234 wrote:
TheoX wrote:Even if the Umineko anime wasn't as good as the Higurashi one, I'm still looking forward to a second season!
Same here. I don't have much patience for visual novels and I still don't know why.

Also, how did I not notice this about Umineko before...

Eva.
Ange.
Lion.

I know Muzo's going to get it, my mind was blown after I noticed that.

Just when I was about to post that I do NOT get it, I suddenly realized it's not about capitalized letters... EV(A)NGELION it is. Actually I think Neon Genesis Evangelion was somewhat overrated but still great.

Actually I haven't seen Umineko yet since I want to finish my school stuff and then on the holidays I'll try to read the Higurashi arcs... it just so happened that during the moment I could have had time to read arc 3 and beyond, my video card broke and we needed to fix that.

And after I finish reading the Higurashi VNs, I will finally read Umineko. I'm going to watch the anime afterwards to see how they handled it... after all, Umineko only has half of the story right now.

The real problem with VNs for me is that you have to read them uninterrupted to get the full impact, and with a story being as slow-burn as the Higurashi VNs (the anime did have a faster pacing, that's for sure) you need LONG uninterrupted sessions. Seeing as the Internet-capable computer is the only computer I have that can run Higurashi well, and my mom also uses the same computer for the Internet... I do not really get such uninterrupted sessions all that much. That's the only reason I stopped at Higurashi arc 3 back then.

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:40 pm

Muzozavr wrote:And after I finish reading the Higurashi VNs, I will finally read Umineko. I'm going to watch the anime afterwards to see how they handled it... after all, Umineko only has half of the story right now.

I know I remember talking about this in a civilized discussion on YouTube of all places, but in the end the collective opinion seems to be that while Umineko as a stand-alone anime is pretty good, as an adaptation, it was awful.

I'd say it's pretty accurate, even though I haven't read the VN's yet, because it reminded me so much of the Ace Attorney series and its pacing. That's always a plus in my book.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:10 pm

This is only tangentially related, and as a magic trick it's kinda obvious, but WOW this is cool. This is really, really awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqzrZNlXmEk

A magic trick done with your eyes. If you can wear contact lenses and you find the right ones, you can perform this effect. If my theory is right, it's kinda obvious (I think) how to do it, actually... but that does not freaking matter.

The thing that matters is that the Onikakushi-hen eyes (either the version in the video here, or get a custom lens) are now possible in real life.

How would you feel if a Rena (or Mion) cosplayer did this in front of you? I'd freak out, probably.

Think about the potential of how a Higurashi movie could use this... would've been totally awesome.

Beware, though, apparently some people got eye irritation due to not being able to wear contact lenses, thus buying this magic trick can be pretty hard, some company got sued over it.

boywhoflies · Post by **boywhoflies** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:16 pm

That looked creepy and painfull.

Not to mention AWESOME!

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:18 pm

Just found out that these lenses are specially designed for the trick, so don't try to do it with normal contact lenses even if you know how, or you will hurt your eyes.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:38 pm

Bump for OMG FORESHADOWING.

I've just started reading arc 3 in VN form like right now and during the cute and happy start one part caught me off-guard and I was like "oh god WHAT?!"...

Foreshadowing is the name of Ryukishi07's game and he's going to play it all the way up to arc SEVEN. Those who know will understand.

See the picture for more information. And please ignore the horrible font problems (lines between letters) there's something strange in how the font hack worked for me... but the MangaGamer font was even uglier than that for me. Besides, I'm used to it already.

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:50 pm

Yeah, that's one of the many things the anime left out. It's stated before that Satoko's colorblind, but the anime is like "lolno not necessary".

And then Season 2 happened.

Apparently, Satoshi can't tell the difference between the two either but isn't colorblind... or something, I'm not sure.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:33 am

Just found out that the "extra" (aka separate from the VNs) TIPS for Umineko will have their own VN, Umineko no Naku Koro ni Tsubasa. Will be released together with EP8 on December 31. That means Witch-Hunt will have more work than ever in 2011.

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:10 am

I was just listening to some OST music and found track titled "Kareta Hanazono", from the PS2 port. Through that I found out what's arguably the "true" ending to the series, and once again it's forcing me to re-think my interpretation of the Higurashi world.

Huge spoilers, read at your own risk:

The "true" ending to the series - entitled Miotsukushi-hen, or the Canal Drying arc - ends on a much more bitter note than Matsuribayashi-hen. Supposedly, the premise is different too, with only Keiichi and Rika working together to expose Takano and overcome the fate of June - Hanyuu is not present from the start, and the events from Watanagashi-hen, Meakashi-hen, Tatarigoroshi-hen, and Tsumihoroboshi-hen are supposedly all at play at the same time.

The ending can be viewed as much more meaningful than Matsuribayashi-hen's ending - as opposed to its happy ending where everyone lives, it ends on a much sadder note more representative of the series - while Rika and the rest of the club survive, Hanyuu dies (I'm not sure how yet, trying to find out right now).

I'm not too sure what to make of this because I haven't read it myself, so...

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:46 am

The difference is that Hanyuu does not dodge that bullet. In the anime that scene was really terribly done, in the Matsuribayashi VN Hanyuu stops time AFAIK.

Have to say that I have read about that ending and from what I know about it... I don't like it. I'd put it as a good alternate ending, but it just ends on a bitter note but it's not any more "realistic" in any way than Matsuribayashi -- with the powers of Hanyuu's epic speeches, Keiichi manages to literally dodge bullets ala Neo. And no time-stop whatsoever.

Also, if Rika and Keiichi (and Hanyuu) are the only ones who work on it together, how in the world did Minagoroshi-hen fail so badly if they ALL worked together from the start? The whole point of Matsuribayashi-hen is that EVERYONE is involved. EVERYONE. That includes Hanyuu, that includes Ooishi, eventually that even includes Akasaka in an epic way. What's the point of diminishing that?!

On the good side, Miotsukushi-hen provided the origins of Hanyuu and *that* syndrome. Both of that was mixed in the anime in different arcs, Higurashi Rei's Saikoroshi-hen received Hanyuu's origins, I think. But still: is it all worth it? Plus, I don't think this new ending was even written by Ryukishi07 himself, it's quite possible it was made up by Alkemist.

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:02 am

Muzozavr wrote:The difference is that Hanyuu does not dodge that bullet. In the anime that scene was really terribly done, in the Matsuribayashi VN Hanyuu stops time AFAIK.

How is dodging a bullet without flinching terribly done?

Really though, I don't know what you mean by that, could you clarify?

Muzozavr wrote:Have to say that I have read about that ending and from what I know about it... I don't like it. I'd put it as a good alternate ending, but it just ends on a bitter note but it's not any more "realistic" in any way than Matsuribayashi -- with the powers of Hanyuu's epic speeches, Keiichi manages to literally dodge bullets ala Neo. And no time-stop whatsoever.

I think they were trying to go for a less "idealistic" ending while still keeping Higurashi and HigurashiKai's themes in mind. I know Hanyuu's speech was about "proving that human will is stronger than fate", but that's about it.

From what I can tell, Matsuribayashi is based on the belief that the power of friendship can break through any fate so long as everyone truly believes, whereas Miotsukushi is based off the belief that against a will as strong as Takano's, while happiness can be achieved, it's going to be at a price in the end.

Muzozavr wrote:Also, if Rika and Keiichi (and Hanyuu) are the only ones who work on it together, how in the world did Minagoroshi-hen fail so badly if they ALL worked together from the start? The whole point of Matsuribayashi-hen is that EVERYONE is involved. EVERYONE. That includes Hanyuu, that includes Ooishi, eventually that even includes Akasaka in an epic way. What's the point of diminishing that?!

The main difference being that in Minagoroshi they were still clueless as to who was responsible from the start.

Muzozavr wrote:On the good side, Miotsukushi-hen provided the origins of Hanyuu and *that* syndrome. Both of that was mixed in the anime in different arcs, Higurashi Rei's Saikoroshi-hen received Hanyuu's origins, I think. But still: is it all worth it? Plus, I don't think this new ending was even written by Ryukishi07 himself, it's quite possible it was made up by Alkemist.

No, Miotsukushi isn't official. I probably should be a bit clearer: It's regarded as "a more meaningful" finale to the series compared to Matsuribayashi.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:15 am

In the anime version DEEN made it look like the bullet curves AROUND Hanyuu by itself. Judging by comments of others, in the original Matsuribayashi VN it's much more explicitly stated that Hanyuu's power is freezing time (that's how she does the time-loop thing anyway) so she freezes the time and then either she or Rika moved the bullet to the side. THAT SHOULD'VE BEEN CLARIFIED IN THE ANIME!!!

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:38 pm

Ohhhhhhh, I see. In that case...

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:12 pm

DP

I just noticed this while looking for a translation of Kizuna's lyrics again (this one). Near the end, that is, after everyone says all their one-liners. The translation of the lyrics suggests an ending much more similar to Miotsukushi-hen, if the song is interpreted as the story of the series (which it basically is).

Here's the part before and after what I'm talking about:

-KEIICHI- Destiny can be easily changed!
-SATOKO- Consult your friends when you're troubled; that's the best idea.
-RENA- I believe. Now extend your hands.
-MION- No matter where in the world I'm in, it'll never be boring if I'm with my friends!
-SHION- Sis? Let's be twins in the next world, okay?
-SATOSHI- I want to return. To that world where smiles exist!
-RIKA- Losers are unnecessary in this world.
-HANYUU- The power of believing cuts destiny open and starts miracles.
Yes, that's what everyone had taught me!

(Hanyuu) I shall forgive the freed sins
You fleeting, small children
Now that everything is over
-HANYUU- Be happy, everyone.

(All) Let's go, everybody, let our hearts become one
The time we can all laugh together is in our arms
The cry of the cicadas turn into psalms
Now the world is beginning anew

(Rika) Since I could meet my friends here in Hinamizawa
That is the miracle of this story.

What's notable is that in the second-last verse where everyone is singing, Hanyuu can't be heard (not sure if she's actually not there or if it's just Mion's voice overshadowing her, but I can't hear her). Additionally, while it does end on a happier note, Rika's voice in the last phrase is almost as downcast as in the opening.

Just something to think about.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:53 pm

Well, obviously Kizuna will follow the ending that's actually IN the PS2 version, which is Miotsukushi. The discussions on which ending is "better" seem to be long... but the official canon ending is still Matsuribayashi, which means that canonically, Hanyuu (and everyone else) is still alive. Nipah!

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:48 pm

Muzozavr wrote:Well, obviously Kizuna will follow the ending that's actually IN the PS2 version, which is Miotsukushi. The discussions on which ending is "better" seem to be long... but the official canon ending is still Matsuribayashi, which means that canonically, Hanyuu (and everyone else) is still alive. Nipah!

Isn't Kizuna (the song) from Higurashi Kai? I'm pretty sure it is.

To clarify, I don't mean the port (whichever it was that was called Kizuna), but the Dear You variant.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:58 pm

Sorry, I got confused with the port.

It's from Kai? Hmm. Food for thought...

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:12 am

Muzozavr wrote:It's from Kai? Hmm. Food for thought...

I can't find anything that suggests otherwise, I've heard it's from Kai's soundtrack and that's about it.

I was just listening to it again and noticed one other thing (that might not even mean anything) - at the end of Hanyuu's solo, before everyone else starts singing again, there's a small echo.

I might be overthinking it, but... Considering the kind of stuff Higurashi does (using a doll as a precedent for arc 2, re: main villain), I wonder if Ryukishi had originally planned for an ending similar to Miotsukushi and the song was based off of that but never got changed to reflect the new ending.

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:38 am

DP

Well, all "bad final ending" stuff aside, I'm surprised - Yogoishi-hen (Beyond Midnight) is just about the only "bad future" arc to end on a happy note. It takes place as an alternate reality to Tsumihoroboroshi-hen. I don't think I need to describe how it's an "alternate reality".

That said, it does surprisingly end on a lighter note than any of the other "bad ending" arcs in the series. It's manga-only to the best of my knowledge, though.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:41 pm

Yes, manga-only. It happens if Rena does blow up the school, right?

The actual arcs in the VNs are Onikakushi, Watanagashi, Tatarigoroshi, Himatsubushi, Meakashi, Tsumihiboroshi, Minagoroshi, Matsuribayashi.

In Matsuri, there's the Miotsukushi ending as well as two other arcs that I know nothing about. It isn't translated, though -- and possibly won't BE translated.