The Wonderland Board

Video 4 is still uploading/processing, but here's the playlist for that 59:04 run.

When/If YT stops messing about and lets me upload >15 minute videos again, I'll upload a full version instead of this cut version.

Your youtube settings didn't revoke/disable your 15min+ videos clearance, did it?

I'm pretty sure it did. Trying to find out right now.

Either way, it's dumb, because I'm fairly sure the copyright strike I've got on my account is unfounded to begin with.

EDIT: Maybe it didn't... ? I tried uploading the full hour-long video and it says it's processing right now, it didn't complain about it being longer than 15 minutes either...

It's possible to complete WA1 with 43 stars.

I don't know if it actually saves any time, or if it does then not very much at all.

The purple key that gives you access to the Creepy Keep lookout tower that you get from the Stinker in the corn fields can also be used for the purple gate in Temple Ruins (not the one blocking access to Temple Ruins, the one in Temple Ruins blocking access to the Rainbow Pool). You will have enough stars to access east Wondertown after collecting the red shard.

And if you think you can get Patooter's key on the way it doesn't work because you need one more star.

*edits ways to get stuck list*

Oh wow, neat.

I wouldn't think it saves that much time though, Seven Locks and Teleportation are pretty short.

Hey does anyone know if what computer you have could effect how quickly the game runs?

And Qloof234 - did you know that you can overtake Pootsy first thing in the windmill area? I suggest the setup, as soon as you are in the area move southeast one space, then hold northeast as far as possible, then simply move through the gap and to the red arrow before Pootsy. It's amusing because later there are two Pootsy's. And in the area after that, you can immediately move northwest then northeast to get ahead of Pootsy rather than have him block you for a second.

Also when you're stealing the indigo shard you can get ahead of the Thwart as long as you don't block him from stepping onto the space right of the center of the room below. I suggest the setup, as soon as you move past the door below, move right two spaces then southeast two spaces. I don't know what the best thing to do after this is, but you can actually move across the collapsing bridges on the right before the Thwart. I'll have to test what's fastest.

So apparently I can upload videos longer than 15 minutes after all... ??

Full video of the speedrun, should be working: Click

As for the Windmill: I kinda figured as much, could never figure it out though.

For the shard steal, I was taking that slowly because on one attempt I actually managed to softlock the game by getting the Thwart trapped in the same room as Morklin with me locked in the room below.

OK, now this is a speedrun and not just a route video. Absolutely fantastic, overall, with treacherous levels executed smoothly without a hitch. A few levels that I dreaded watching (like The Pyramid) became some of the most enjoyable ones to see.

But since this is now good enough to be a run, I have to comment...

First of all, I think flash games for Simon Says are a perfect way to train your memory for the shards. That's also a note for myself.

Things that could've been better and/or potential improvements:

"Passage of Fire": OK, sometimes it's worth to be cautious for the sake of sanity, but considering this level always works the same way (no random or semi-random factors) and it's very early in the game, I'd say it's worth trying to learn the more reckless route and getting 0:32 instead of 0:59. I understand restarting the game more often is not pleasant, but 27 extra seconds are not to be ignored. If I ever end up going for a whole-game run, I'll definitely go for the better (more reckless) route on this level.

"Chomper Cave": I think you can beat this level faster by raising the bridge again after the chomper dies, going across the island and circling across the level clockwise instead of counterclockwise. I think. I'm not sure.

"Double Lock": I GAVE YOU A BETTER ROUTE FOR THIS WHY ARE YOU NOT USING IT (translation: you're wasting 10 seconds on this level alone just because you didn't watch my video)

"River Crossing": there has to be a better way of doing the right part, it looks so slow. I don't know exactly what needs to be done, but there has to be something. VERY well executed run, though.

"Stoppers": just skip the bottom scritter and do this level the one-scritter way, it's possible.

"The Green Shard": That's an unfortunate ending with that glitch getting triggered. Maybe it's worth it to be completely reckless, skip through the starting dialogue very very very quickly and then rush straight ahead, not even waiting for that fireball. It's difficult to do, but I think it's almost guaranteed to shift the timing so that the end glitch never happens. Normally this trick wouldn't be worth doing (especially so late in the game) because it only saves a minimal amount of time and has a high risk of dying, but considering this unfortunate design oversight at the end, it may just be worth it to avoid the risk of getting stuck.

"Thwart Power Cubes B": OK, you clearly did not watch my video, did you? Whatever route you take, if it's slower than two fireflower shots (and no more) then you're wasting time in comparison.

"The Purple Shard": I know this is only a matter of a few extra seconds and not worth making a fuss over, but no extra blink at the end for speed? Really? Aww.

On the other hand, here are some things I especially liked:

Coin taking strategy: MUCH BETTER this time around. I didn't do any testing here, but I suspect this coin strategy might be close to perfect.

Additional Q-spells in the sewer hub section: OH MY GOD. I swear I didn't even think of doing that outside an adventure.

"Treasure Springs": epic run. You got 0:31, didn't you?

"The Magic Gloves": there is visible room for improvement, but honestly, this is a treacherous level and you've done a great job.

"Lost in the Sewers": I still find your clever handling of this level to be a joy to watch. Using that last transporter as a blink pad in order to get BOTH stinkers across at once... it seems obvious when I watch the video, but I never really figured it out myself.

"Firing Squad": aha, so that's how this level looks when done well. Makes sense that you chose to do this one instead of "Helping Friends", it looks like "Helping Friends" is actually slower unless something tricky is found.

"Thwart Power Cubes" A and B: GREAT execution this time around. You've found the perfect spot to stand on A.

"The Pyramid": wait, you've found reliable, non-fumbly ways to deal with scritters going down instead of up? You only messed up once? Wait, white magic saves time when backtracking? For an understanding viewer, this is one of the highlights of the run.

There are many more things I liked about this run, I just can't remember them all at once. Anyway, aside from the end of "The Green Shard", which wasn't your fault, and the fact that you clearly didn't watch my videos on "Double Lock" and "Thwart Power Cubes B", I'd only really criticize "Passage of Fire". The rest of the run went really, really well and was a blast to watch.

Well done! Saw some parts of the video, it's pretty cool!

Out of curiosity, who's "ismyneckonfire" on YouTube?

Wait, why are we still doing River Crossings?

I approximate:

Button Me Down - 1:30
River Crossings - 1:10
The other four that give you a swamp key each - 0:45

You only need to do four.

Also on The Green Shard, are you sure you didn't just wait long enough? I've definitely seen it take longer for the mechanism to operate than what you waited.

WHOA LONG POST

Muzozavr wrote:OK, now this is a speedrun and not just a route video. Absolutely fantastic, overall, with treacherous levels executed smoothly without a hitch. A few levels that I dreaded watching (like The Pyramid) became some of the most enjoyable ones to see.

But since this is now good enough to be a run, I have to comment...

First of all, I think flash games for Simon Says are a perfect way to train your memory for the shards. That's also a note for myself.

Mm, good idea.

EDIT: Specifically, I always get screwed up whenever the song starts with one shard three times in a row. I don't know why that screws up my counting, but it does.

Muzozavr wrote:"Passage of Fire": OK, sometimes it's worth to be cautious for the sake of sanity, but considering this level always works the same way (no random or semi-random factors) and it's very early in the game, I'd say it's worth trying to learn the more reckless route and getting 0:32 instead of 0:59. I understand restarting the game more often is not pleasant, but 27 extra seconds are not to be ignored. If I ever end up going for a whole-game run, I'll definitely go for the better (more reckless) route on this level.

I kind of figured it was possible to go faster, but I wasn't entirely sure on the timing, so I didn't chance it.

Muzozavr wrote:"Chomper Cave": I think you can beat this level faster by raising the bridge again after the chomper dies, going across the island and circling across the level clockwise instead of counterclockwise. I think. I'm not sure.

Ooh, good idea. Going to look into that.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm just about certain that's faster.

Muzozavr wrote:"Double Lock": I GAVE YOU A BETTER ROUTE FOR THIS WHY ARE YOU NOT USING IT (translation: you're wasting 10 seconds on this level alone just because you didn't watch my video)

For both this and Power Cubes B, it's because I haven't memorized/practiced your route yet.

Muzozavr wrote:"River Crossing": there has to be a better way of doing the right part, it looks so slow. I don't know exactly what needs to be done, but there has to be something. VERY well executed run, though.

Thank you. On that note, if you're skilled with quick-turn on Brr pads, I think it's possible to speed up the right side of the level significantly. Going to test this a bit later.

EDIT: As I suspected, it's entirely possible to do this faster, but it requires several quick-turn tricks. What I did (which still may not be the fastest way) was put a brr pad south-west of the short wall, so that one turtle was right next to the wall with the other one just above it. After that, I pretty much filled the water with brr pads, and when sliding across to the main area, shot a brr pad to the lowest water tile (you can't reach it otherwise).

The quick-turn comes into play where you have to slide across the bottom three panels into the wall, then move down immediately to make it to the lower gems. From there, fill the water tiles up to the higher wall, slide across those, then immediately move east to make it to the central right area. From there, just slide across two pads from the wall-turtle to the centre of the level.

(I hope that made sense)

Muzozavr wrote:"Stoppers": just skip the bottom scritter and do this level the one-scritter way, it's possible.

Do you have a video of the one-Scritter route? I have no idea how this is supposed to be done.

Muzozavr wrote:"The Green Shard": That's an unfortunate ending with that glitch getting triggered. Maybe it's worth it to be completely reckless, skip through the starting dialogue very very very quickly and then rush straight ahead, not even waiting for that fireball. It's difficult to do, but I think it's almost guaranteed to shift the timing so that the end glitch never happens. Normally this trick wouldn't be worth doing (especially so late in the game) because it only saves a minimal amount of time and has a high risk of dying, but considering this unfortunate design oversight at the end, it may just be worth it to avoid the risk of getting stuck.

Mm, yeah, that's something worth trying. On another note, I did try Q-Blinking into the button room on the left, and it's not possible, the walls along the sides are in the way.

Muzozavr wrote:"The Purple Shard": I know this is only a matter of a few extra seconds and not worth making a fuss over, but no extra blink at the end for speed? Really? Aww.

Mm, forgot about doing this, actually.

Muzozavr wrote:Coin taking strategy: MUCH BETTER this time around. I didn't do any testing here, but I suspect this coin strategy might be close to perfect.

I'm not entirely sure about that, there's likely still some room for improvement. The coin strategy here (if you can call it that, it was mostly spur of the moment) came about because during an earlier run (the one that was killed by the Green Shard lock-up) I ended up 3 coins short and had to muck about in the Sewers for a bit longer to get enough coins.

Muzozavr wrote:Additional Q-spells in the sewer hub section: OH MY GOD. I swear I didn't even think of doing that outside an adventure.

The thing I'm wondering here is whether or not this is actually that much faster. I suspect it is, but I haven't timed it to check.

Muzozavr wrote:"Treasure Springs": epic run. You got 0:31, didn't you?

Thank you. Yes, that was 0:31.

Muzozavr wrote:"The Magic Gloves": there is visible room for improvement, but honestly, this is a treacherous level and you've done a great job.

Again, thank you. The part with the firetraps at the end is probably the worst part of the level, in my opinion, if only because trying to rush through it can give you a good example of how finicky collision detection in the Adventures engine can be at times (aka "WHAT I WASN'T ON THE FIRETRAP ANYMORE WHY DID I GET BURNT").

Muzozavr wrote:"Firing Squad": aha, so that's how this level looks when done well. Makes sense that you chose to do this one instead of "Helping Friends", it looks like "Helping Friends" is actually slower unless something tricky is found.

I'm not sure on the time difference between the two, but I went for Firing Squad because I'm more or less certain that (due to the fact it's right near the entrance of the room) it's faster overall.

Muzozavr wrote:"Thwart Power Cubes" A and B: GREAT execution this time around. You've found the perfect spot to stand on A.

Again, thank you. I'm assuming you mean either C or D instead of B, though?

Muzozavr wrote:"The Pyramid": wait, you've found reliable, non-fumbly ways to deal with scritters going down instead of up? You only messed up once? Wait, white magic saves time when backtracking? For an understanding viewer, this is one of the highlights of the run.

Reliable? Sort of, not entirely. What I'm doing is carefully listening to the button presses to determine when to move a Scritter down. It's still not perfect, and it's still a bit slow, but in my opinion it definitely makes this section a lot more bearable.

Muzozavr wrote:There are many more things I liked about this run, I just can't remember them all at once. Anyway, aside from the end of "The Green Shard", which wasn't your fault, and the fact that you clearly didn't watch my videos on "Double Lock" and "Thwart Power Cubes B", I'd only really criticize "Passage of Fire". The rest of the run went really, really well and was a blast to watch.

Thank you.

billy bob wrote:Wait, why are we still doing River Crossings?

I approximate:

Button Me Down - 1:30
River Crossings - 1:10
The other four that give you a swamp key each - 0:45

You only need to do four.

Ignoring whether or not River Crossing can be sped up, the only real reasons I do it are because A) in playing that level, you only need to navigate four different hub areas of the Forest, and B) During initial routing, that was one of the few levels I remembered the solution to. I'm not sure if it's actually faster or not to find a different adventure to do, haven't tried it.

billy bob wrote:Also on The Green Shard, are you sure you didn't just wait long enough? I've definitely seen it take longer for the mechanism to operate than what you waited.

I'm more or less certain it failed, there - If you listen closely, there are two explosion noises, meaning one of the turtles is getting killed by the gate as well. If one of the turtles was still "free", then the mechanism should've triggered right away, because the other turtle would be right next to the button.

I'm assuming you mean either C or D instead of B, though?

I meant C. For some reason my memory is utterly convinced that B is the one with spikeyballs and brr, while C is the one with fireflowers. I know that's incorrect, but I keep making the same mistake over and over.

PB

Orange Shard: 7:02
Indigo Shard #1: 12:57
Indigo Shard #2: 21:46
Red Shard: 34:22
Rainbow Pool: 40:40
Green Shard: 51:35
Yellow Shard: 59:00
Purple Shard: 1:01:59


I hate The Pyramid.

And for that precise trick in Passage of Fire, I don't even need to save before doing it because there is a really good visual cue, you just look for the lone bridge on the right to come up then hold right.

I have achieved an any% on River Crossings in 1:01 and I suspect it's possible to be a bit faster with awesome quick-brr tricks or very precise aiming.

Placing a brr-tile south-west of that wall allows me to collect 3 gems at the right-top of the level, then return and step on the bottom button. The top turtle will somehow get to the perfect position and allow you to collect the right-bottom gems without quick-brr-turning. Some brr recharging may be in order. At the bottom, follow the right side because the turtles are at the left, quickly collect two gems and stay back. When the turtles pass, collect the other two gems, freeze your way to the left bottom (7 brrs is all you need and all you have, so don't waste any) and collect the gems quickly.

With additional quick-brr tricks, I think it's possible to get this level below 1:00 but not by much.

Sub 1 hour!

PB (5th run)

Orange Shard: 6:55
Indigo Shard #1: 12:53
Indigo Shard #2: 21:56
Red Shard: 34:48
Rainbow Pool: 40:50
Green Shard: 51:10
Yellow Shard: 56:58
Purple Shard: 59:41

This is fun. There are a few splits that can definitely be improved here.

I love The Pyramid.

Experimented a bit, and I've come to the conclusion that there's no way to reliably speed up Thwart Power Cubes B using white magic. With all the time spent moving around and saving and loading, it just takes too long.

Figured out how to do Stoppers with just one Scritter, that's devious (though saying that, wouldn't it be faster to get the bottom Scritter instead of the top one? You're already there, so...)

EDIT: Also, how are you supposed to speed up Passage of Fire? The main reason it takes me about a minute is because literally every single time I've tried rushing even the slightest bit, I get killed by a firetrap just before the game considers me as being on the "next" tile.

DP

For 100% runs, I did some poking around - I believe the total number of coins in the hub is 121. Still looking into this, and haven't checked for Gems yet.

EDIT: Yup, there are 121 coins in the hub. For that matter, I think (keyword think) there are only 62 gems in the overworld. I'm not quite as certain about this count, because 1) Both the crystal shards and the actual bonus points gem object share the same model, meaning my search method picks up the shards as well, and 2) unused/cutscene hub levels.

TP

Just discovered a slightly risky, albeit minor time-saver in Freshwater Reservoir, provided you actually pick up coins in this level.

After getting sprung across the water, if you time your last Blink spell right, you can teleport onto the bridge in front of the star just as you land on the ground, saving a few seconds spent blinking around it. The timing is the key - If you're too early, you'll still be flying when the spell teleports you, which'll cause you to drown.

Still, thought that was something neat, so... Yeah.

Also, how are you supposed to speed up Passage of Fire? The main reason it takes me about a minute is because literally every single time I've tried rushing even the slightest bit, I get killed by a firetrap just before the game considers me as being on the "next" tile.

If a firetrap can kill you before it looks like it should, it can also become safe before it looks like it should. Even before the fire graphic disappears, the "safe" part of the cycle is longer than you'd expect.

Neat trick on Freshwater Reservoir. Very interesting. Also, if you blink earlier, you can actually blink on water. Sadly, this glitch seems to be absolutely useless.

As for TPC B, if you watch my video, there's quite some time that passes before the first shot. If you can waste most of the blinks before blinking to that particular spot, you can blink to the right side and run out of blinks. Then you can save/load/load for the white magic glitch and blow the last cubes up, avoiding the wait for the next fireflower shot. I think this is the only way white magic can be useful in this level.

Actually, the blink-on-water glitch can be useful in rare situations, like if you want to blink where a bridge would activate before another creature activates it.

Yzfm wrote:Actually, the blink-on-water glitch can be useful in rare situations, like if you want to blink where a bridge would activate before another creature activates it.

I know, I should've said "useless for an any% run" because you don't get to use it beneficially in any level. It might be useful for some level in a 100% run. It definitely can be used in "custom level" situations.

Muzozavr wrote:

Also, how are you supposed to speed up Passage of Fire? The main reason it takes me about a minute is because literally every single time I've tried rushing even the slightest bit, I get killed by a firetrap just before the game considers me as being on the "next" tile.

If a firetrap can kill you before it looks like it should, it can also become safe before it looks like it should. Even before the fire graphic disappears, the "safe" part of the cycle is longer than you'd expect.

That... doesn't really help me, sorry.

EDIT:



EDIT 3: Ohh. OHHH. I misread your post in regards to how much time can be saved earlier. I thought you were saying you can cut the time down to 27 seconds, not reduce time by that much. Whoops.

Still leaving this picture here though, because I can.

My best time for "Passage of Fire" was 32 seconds and I don't think it can be beaten. You had 59, so yeah... 59-27=32.

If you misread it, it makes sense that you were having a hard time with it.

The picture is funny, but I think when the fire catches you slightly before you step away, it also "pushes" you instantly in the next tile while killing you. That makes it look like the fire shouldn't have been able to collide with the stinker. I know I've seen this instant "push" quite a few times trying to bypass firetraps just a hair too late.

I'm not gonna lie, after practicing this adventure I don't think I've actually failed at it yet. The trick is, to look for the lone middle bridge on the right to come up then hold the right arrow key. You don't even need to save beforehand.

Edit: Wait, we are talking about the same time saver here? You have to get across the bridge in time before it collapses.

billy bob wrote:I'm not gonna lie, after practicing this adventure I don't think I've actually failed at it yet. The trick is, to look for the lone middle bridge on the right to come up then hold the right arrow key. You don't even need to save beforehand.

Edit: Wait, we are talking about the same time saver here? You have to get across the bridge in time before it collapses.

I'm not sure. I only know about the optimal time. I went everywhere as early as possible, but sometimes I had to wait, anyway. That means it's possible to put these "waiting" periods in previous steps and save yourself some major headaches.

If it's as easy as you say, that's nice. That's really nice. My way was quite a bit more treacherous than that.

Been doing runs all day and finally got a good time.

Wonderland Adventures Any%

Orange Shard: 6:59
Indigo Shard #1: 13:00
Indigo Shard #2: 21:08
Red Shard: 33:21
Rainbow Pool: 38:32
Green Shard: 49:20
Yellow Shard: 55:06
Purple Shard: 57:58

This can be improved. Some minor mistakes, specifically on Indigo Shard #2 and Green Shard and Purple Shard.

The reason for the large discrepancies compared to my PB is because I didn't press the "Next Split" button right away during that one. Also lost a bit of time due to my mom asking for my help and me forgetting to pause the timer while I was AFK.

EDIT: I think I'll retract this time, actually - There were other timer shenanigans beyond my mom asking for help, and I'm not sure how much of a difference any of those made, so in retrospect I don't think it's fair to count this time. Just ignore this, please.

Qloof234 wrote:Also lost a bit of time due to my mom asking for my help and me forgetting to pause the timer while I was AFK.

This is why I usually have to wait unil 3AM before I can start speedruns.

Qloof234, I noticed in the video you do the right side of The Pyramid first. I suggest you do the left side first, because the path of gates opens as soon as you get there every time. You will have to be a bit quick and the lamp will take a second to activate, but it can't be that difficult because I haven't missed it yet. As soon as you enter the area, move up one space then hold right. At this point the lamp will activate and you will be able to see when to move down through the gates. Practice it once or twice first.

Mm, yeah. The reason I do the Scritter side first is to get it out of the way, because even if you're playing by ear, it can be pretty obnoxious.

On another note, I'm bored and have too much time on my hands, so I've been taking a look at WA's hub and taking screenshots, thinking of maybe trying to work out a 100% route. On that note, both a thought and something of interest.

Thought: I think 100% should be split into two (maybe more?) categories - All Stars, and All Coins/Gems. Needless to say, 105 stars would be necessary for both, and this goes for gems more than anything else, but I'm not really sure tracking gem count manually is worth it. While you need coins to get 100% to begin with, that's another issue, though I still think having an All Stars 100% category is a good idea.

Interesting thing: In the Sewer, both the Freshwater Reservoir/Chasm Chase room and the Horace/Wee Stinker room are actually the same .wlv. I never noticed that before.

EDIT: Actually, @billy bob - You said you mash Enter instead of clicking to skip through dialogue. Is there any trick to this? Whenever I try doing this, it doesn't continue until the first dialogue box is completely loaded. I seem to recall reading holding an arrow key had something to do with this, but even if I'm not pressing anything except Enter, the dialogue won't advance via Enter until the first interchange is already done.

I, uh... Yeah. In case you're wondering, yes, this is legit.

The reasons I can think of for the huge drops (Green Shard onward) - Less mistakes with Shard Music (still made one or two after getting the Green Shard), pulling off River Crossings and The Green Shard without needing to restart (or having the turtle failure in TGS happen), doing the left side of The Pyramid first, answering the Shadow Stinker's questions more or less immediately, using Muzo's route for Thwart Cubes B... Other than that, I think this mostly comes down to minor timesavers adding up.