The Wonderland Board

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Wow! That looks fantastic! I can't wait! I'm sure it'll be fun! (These little stinkers are sooo cute!)

Another fine issue!
Thanks for the sneak peek, and good luck with your new project!
jg

I think it looked great as usual! That new project looks great! Can't wait!

WOW the new wonderland looks supper!!!

i am wored about is when they said they wont use tiles in the game

Another great issue! Looking forward to the completion of your new project!

That's a great puzzle in this issue. I've printed it on card so it will last for years, and anyone who fancies a bit of light brain excercise can have a go.

I have done it btw.

I like the sound of the new game, especially the versatility of the graphics. I hope 3D models will still be able to be used in it. Would it be possible to incorporate the transparency facility into this one, and also being able to make models look shiny (e.g. metal) would be nice.

Another entertaining and tantalising Post.

I think the "possible" new game would be fantastic. Looks like you can make curved walls too - great! And the Little Stinkers as a usable game element is really interesting.

What I'd like too is the possibility of having animated custom bits. It would be nice to be able to make waterfalls for example.

Thanks a lot for this one Patrick.

WOW! I'm amazed at the new *WONDERland! Amazing!!!Does the New* Wonderland Cost anything?$$$(I'm sure my dad will buy it for me)







*Subject to change

Another wish - shared by quite a few - is the ability to make animated solutions to our levels. This would be easier than writing laborious instructions about how to complete levles.

Virtlands made an amazing animated solution to his Clover Boxes level, but this took hours of work.

Amadeus! has been trying to find a recording program to mimic the player's movement and record a solution. This has had only partial success.

Games like The Goobs and Professor Fizzwizzle have animated solutions to their levels. Can we have this feature for Wonderland?

Pleeeeese Patrick!

I like the sound of this!! Sometimes all I really need is the right direction to go in and I can solve the puzzle.

The game Fitznik has this feature also. You can escape any time you want so you don't have to get the whole solution unless you want it!

****************************************************************
Susan

Hey y'all!

Thanks for the comments so far - glad you enjoyed issue #3.

About the new game: I'm reading all the comments, my apologies if I don't take the time to answer them individually. Just rest assured that I do take notes.

A lot of the requests/ideas posted are basically extensions of the current Wonderland concept. Some of these might well find their way into the next RTW update (When and if it comes. I do plan to keep supporting the "classic" games with periodic updates, such as the recent Platinum Edition. Maybe we'll see a SuperDuperUltimate Edtion for 2007. No promises, of course).

Will such suggestions find their way into the "new" Wonderland? Really hard to say, because I don't even know yet what the final shape of that game will be. It looks like there will be some radical changes in game design, i.e. this will not simply be another sequel, but a completely different game. Until things crystalize more on my side, I don't want to name many specifics - mainly so I don't get people's hopes up only to come back two weeks later and say "ya, actually we scrapped that part of the design".

So, in some sense, dream big! Tell the forum what you'd love to be able to do in the Wonderland world, even if it sounds nutty, like "I'd like to have a little house and garden in Wonderland that I can decorate by spending the bonus coins I find in levels." There might only be a 0.1% chance that something makes it into the final game, but as long as everyone understands that when they post, there's certainly no harm in it. And you just never know what makes it into the final game!

(Please, though, keep that particular discussion in this thread rather than all over the board)

Along those tracks, Robbie sent me a detailed PM with his vision of a Wonderland RPG in the style of the old Ultima games - feel free to post it here.

Nothing new to "officially" update, but I thought I'd just post another screenshot... no explanation, just for fun, and the usual proviso ("It might never look like this").

Cheers.

Hi Pat,

I had in mind a hibrid of Ultima/Zelda/Final Fantasy(some nice animation)

Here are my thoughts for better or worse.

There really hasn’t been much in the way of serious discussion beyond extending the current features though I have to admit I really like the idea of a gate accessible only by forfeiting a set no. of coins.

Considering your plans just for the water alone and having mentioned quests (or something to that effect), and keeping in mind the gameless eager 3million or so Gaia members, why not take an RPG/Adventure line while still retaing the puzzle elements?

Side Note: www.gaiaonline.com is an online forum with something like 3 million members that has an adventure/rpg flavour but no game to speak of. I grew up on Adventure/RPG games (Infocom,Bards Tale, Zelda, Ultima) & apart from my personal interest (no, not financial - just fun) this market alone has a huge potential - for people that would like to play & create & are not necessarily fussed on the online gaming scene.

Here’s some notes I was making today/yesterday.


Game Direction
Brief:
- retain puzzle elements from Wonderland series
- allow for adventure/rpg expansion
Benefit:
- wider audience
Mechanics & Issues:
- tile based level creation but still allow free movement as suggested

Graphics
Brief:
- allow for greater resolution
Benefit:
- ability to have greater control over appearance
Mechanics & Issues:
- variable resolution to be set by level creator (obviously greater resolution, greater file size)
- the issue of sloping ground has been brought up and while it's a great idea, how complex or simple do you make it from a programming perspective before it gets too complicated to incorporate? Have say 15,30,45,60,76,90 degree angles? How do you incorporate it into a sandbox type editing system?
- do you work on a tile system and then have the option of raising/lowering the corner point heights allowing for a variable slope - then at what point does a slope become too great to move across without say a special item?
- maybe an option would be to have very simple sloping options 30/60/90 which might simplify the issue for an editor - and if you have special boots, a ladder, a rope you can pass - a lot of great RPGs have been produced with multiple levels but no sloping at all.


Sound
Brief:
- allow for music & sound effects to be set on a tile by tile basis. Event effects/music dependant on event/NPC interaction/combat
Benefit:
- greater control over in-game atmosphere
Mechanics & Issues:

Editor
Brief:
- sandbox type setup - 3 dimensional - zoom in /out for overview
- set per tile floor/water type, model with no deadspot issue, music,sound effect,monster encounter probability/type,npc event,item (chest)
Benefit:
- control over every aspect/situation
- ability to see how a level looks while creating it
Mechanics & Issues:
- ability to cut & paste selections of a level/insert row/column etc

Models
Brief:
- unlimited models
- model depot - maybe other users could offer to host/organise/manage models for use
- no deadspot
- animated models
- models that could be removed after a certain event occurs
Benefit:
Mechanics & Issues:
- on a multilevel area, how do you allow for the reuse of a model (for example say a bush or a tree) at different heights without having to use say 2 different models where an adjustment is made for the y (using AC3D) value?

Buy/Sell – Item System
Brief:
- ability to gather gold either by finding it, completing tasks, gambling, battles, selling items
- stores to buy/sell items
Benefit:
Mechanics & Issues:

Textures
Brief:
- transparent & animated textures
Benefit:
- it would make me happy! If only I could work out how to use it…
Mechanics & Issues:
- allow for degrees of transparency, animation speed (don't know how this works)

Cut Scenes
Brief:
- after completion of an area/event, ability to load movie/audio file & continue on
- could be used at the beginning of a level as a title screen/intro story
Benefit:
- atmosphere/informative/reward for completion
Mechanics & Issues:
- might be as simple as a jpg or 2 showing some text & picture or as complex as a movie file with animation & sound

NPCs (Non-Player Characters)
Brief:
- set task/possess reward/item required for something else - provide hints/info - general chit-chat
- ability to join party to assist in battles etc
Benefit:
Mechanics & Issues:
- ability to change message depending on situation - ie if a task has been completed it would sound silly if their still saying the same thing - maybe a new task/a thankyou for helping them again - maybe they move to allow accesss to another area after completion of a task
- party NPCs would still be manually controlled rather than computer controlled

Doors/Keys
Brief:
- locked areas that require a key/item/task to be completed
Benefit:
Mechanics & Issues:
- option to close a path once it has been crossed to force forward movement/story progression

Chests
Brief:
- contain treasure/gold/special items
Benefit:
- used as a goal/reward
Mechanics & Issues:
- locked/unlocked/booby-trapped - require key/maybe lockpick

Transport
Brief:
- ability to either purchase through stores/npcs or earn through completing tasks
Benefit:
- faster land travel or access areas otherwise inaccessible
Mechanics & Issues:
- raft (previously suggested), boat, horse etc, flying carpet etc

Water
Brief:
- possible to have water falling? Inaddition to notes in last newsletter - decoration/hidden entrance etc
Benefit:
- decoration/hidden entrance etc
Mechanics & Issues:

Linked Levels
Brief:
- rather than having everything laid out on the one screen, have a setup where for example you are traveling on a plain, you ‘enter’ into a small model of a town, the screen closes, and a new screen opens up with the town, enter into a house model and the same thing. Alternatively, you might enter into a cave or a new area & want to draw a distinction between the areas
Benefit:
- keep areas separate
- allow development of one area without having to make an allowance in another section of the level as would be the case in the current engine
Mechanics & Issues:

Combat System
Brief:
- keep current monster system but allow for random combat event system
- turn based system
Benefit:
- randomise encounters - allow for variation on current enemy system - in line with popular RPG systems
Mechanics & Issues:
- setting in editor on a tile by tile basis. 1 in x chance of a battle occurring with such & such a creature/set/combination

Backpack
Brief:
- so you can carry your stuff!
- be it items for use on a journey – weapons/healing potions etc – items for tasks etc
Benefit:
Mechanics & Issues:
- how much can you carry? Maybe simplify it by being able to carry x no of items or a large no with no consideration for size/weight etc?

Character Design
Brief:
- design your own character which would appear in detail in conversation exchange/combat - male/female - different hair/eyes/skin colour - appearance would change dependant on clothing etc worn
Benefit:
- personalize the experience, vary the journey
Mechanics & Issues:
- how would the variation of character designs translate to the 3d enviroment moving around? Maybe for status/combat screens the process could be simplified to 2d representations. Maybe it would be a matter of building a library of characters to use?

Character Development
Brief:
- rpg style stats - hit point/magic points - experience which builds with quests/tasks/battle etc - personal stats which change with items
Benefit:
- traditional progressive system when experience allows entrance to other areas/deal with greater challenges
Mechanics & Issues:
- ability to load developed characters into other levels - which would be useful where someone develops another rpg level/module which continues on from their previous.
- someone could then take a monster character & breeze through a level but that’s their loss of enjoyment/challenge
- just an additional thought: do you run with traditional RPG type stats (I guess for the purists or do you run with Zelda/console type state which limit themselves to hitpoints/magic points/strength/defence which in themselves would allow for a greater range of stats - this is probably more fun & my preference...

Monster/Magic System
Brief:
- develop a library of monsters/magic
- option of users being able to develop their own
Benefits
Mechanics & Issues:
- not sure it this needs to be really complicated if combat were a turned based static sytem (maybe where it was a 3d enviroment with minimal animation (?) maybe the option for animation of some sort…

Screen View
Brief:
- set points – zoom in and out from map level to 1st person perspective (and a number of points in between) with the added ability to rotate the screen view (ie from front to left/right/behind) but then also the ability from a level editor point to be able to limit the scope of zooming
Benefit:
Mechanics & Issues:

Save System
Brief:
- save/load/restore games/characters
Benefit:
Mechanics & Issues:
- I guess where do you allow saving to happen? My preference is to be able to save anywhere you are – can save frustration after particularly long sections of a game or incredibly difficult sections though probably character loadings happen only at the start of a game.

Rating System
Brief:
- probably more a web site issue – user rating of levels with comments
Benefit:
Mechanics & Issues:


Resource Area
Brief:
- again a web site issue
- additional program links for model creation, texture creation, sound etc
- shop/creature/npc creation programs
- custom area for shops/items/creatures/magic/npcs
Benefit:
Mechanics & Issues:

Cheat System
Brief:
- set your own stats, gold etc
Benefit:
- although ideally you won’t need it, but if the difficulty of a level is off the scale it would be handy just to have it there
Mechanics & Issues:

Possibilities
Brief:
- allow for the fact that people might want to create larger more detailed worlds - more people have or will in the future have broadband access
- allow people to pull out their old Dungeons & Dragons modules & recreate them in a playable system (question here I guess of copyright of the original games)
- allow stat free adventures where it's a matter of finding items & using them in certain areas
- allow the traditional wonderland puzzle games with the new graphics/sound/save options

Benefit:
Mechanics & Issues:

Future Development
Brief:
- network system - where people can play the same game.
Benefit:
- complete individual tasks for a team effort - join in fights if say characters are within close proximity when an event occurs.
Mechanics & Issues:



I honestly think it has huge potential & if I had any real programming talent beyond some excel macro programming I’d jump into it myself. You don’t have to look that far to know that RPG/Adventure has a huge following and that there’s simply nothing been produced of this nature to cater for

Obviously you guys are the ones with the final nod seeing as you’ll have the programming headache

Varied as regular Wonderland puzzles to traditional d&d gaming rescuing fair maidens from the clutches of dragons to futuristic adventures set on multiple worlds. You could create places as varied as medievil castles/towns to Persian empires & then have house/tile(etc) sets available for people to download & incorporate in their own world.

I guess in time you'll create a forum for development as you did with Secret Worlds Pat?

Looking forward to everyone elses thoughts.

Regards
Robbie

I wrote this somewhere else on the forum...

An idea is two new colors of chompers, blue and green, which chase after Qookie and Peegue, respectively. Also, blobs of paint that change the color of a chomper or turn a boulder into a Link Sphere (or change the color of a link sphere). It would be cool to have objects in boxes. Thin ice that is like ice, but similar to a bridge in that you could only walk on it once. One use reflectors, infinite use prisms... The ability to push stickycube blocks (if one half of the block gets stuck on a conveyor, the half breaks off)! Smarter chompers that avoid walls, water, etc. Bonus levels that you do not have to complete. Reflectors that make a fireball reverse direction. Pushable generators and warp gates. More buttons and teleporter colors.... crumbling walls that break when Stinky/Loof/Qookie/Peegue/Boulder/Box runs into them (but chompers, coilys, Zbots, UFOs and other monsters cannot go through until it breaks). Levelporters, teleport you to another level that you also make! Repmohcs (chomper backwards) run away from you but can still kill you... the list goes on and on!

and I have also got more ideas...

You could have your own house in Wondertown.
You could go on missions to get rewards.
You can teleport to other "levels" (which might be a mission itself)
You can have an inventory. In it you can hold boxes, boulders, etc that can help in the mini-"levels"
Missions could also be something like trying to get a Z-Bot out of Wondertown or stopping a stampede of Chompers
You can have pets!
You can switch to Loof, Qookie, and Peegue as usual, but they have different houses.
Designing your house with the puzzle elements and models
Buildings in Wondertown that you can interact with (such as an arcade that you pay Bonus Coins to get into, but get box/boulder/other for your inventory when you win a game)
I guess that's all I can think of for now.

what is the new game going to be called patrick

Robbie wrote:Here are my thoughts for better or worse................

OMG Robbie, you must have been up all night writing that!!

I do like the idea of an adventure style game where items gathered in one level can be taken to the next one and used there. And the ability to interact with other characters sounds good.

Your idea of being able to change the surroundings as you move from one area to another is a great one, that really appeals to me, as does that deadspot issue with the models.

Being able to save the game at certain points is something most, if not all, of us want to see. It would certainly have saved the frustration I've felt on a lot of the levels from the previous games.

As for monsters/combat, I'm not too sure about the idea of having to fight things, especially if it takes quick movements. Patrick said something about this game being played with a mouse rather than the keys, but most fighting games are played with a joypad and my joints just wouldn't cope with that. Combat then would have to consist of picking up a weapon and using it, rather than hand to hand.

The viewing angle of the game is an important factor. Will this game be the same 'from above' view as the last ones, or from the perspective of the character as in 3D? Or will there be the option as there is now with the Platinum edition? Being able to switch from one to the other while playing the level would be good, or Robbie's idea of being able to zoom in and out even better.

I hope, though, that it doesn't end up that different from the current game that it would be unrecognisable as Wonderland, because, in the end, I do love pushing boxes.

ben-09 wrote:what is the new game going to be called patrick

Perhaps it could be called Wonderland - The Next Generation

Wow, great ideas Robbie, altho I'm sure I didn't understand half of what you wrote.

I would agree with everything that popo wrote. Especially:

popo wrote: I hope, though, that it doesn't end up that different from the current game that it would be unrecognisable as Wonderland, because, in the end, I do love pushing boxes. :wink:

One of the many reasons I love Wonderland is its "playability", as it is now, I am unable to comprehend/complete/enjoy many of the new levels because they are just too complex/frustrating. I guess I am saying don't make the "new" version so complicated/high-tech that the fun will go out of it for us slow fingered (minded?) players.

jg

Just another idea

maybe objects like boats(for crossing lava) and flippers (water) could make some interesting changes

I would hate to see too many changes - the Platinum Edition gave us so many more objects/themes/textures to last a long time! I am perfectly happy with the way it is and the thought of changing Wonderland too much is quite scary mary

janetgalle wrote:One of the many reasons I love Wonderland is its "playability", as it is now, I am unable to comprehend/complete/enjoy many of the new levels because they are just too complex/frustrating. I guess I am saying don't make the "new" version so complicated/high-tech that the fun will go out of it for us slow fingered (minded?) players. :)jg

I have to agree with JG on this. Some of the current levels are so complicated that you can't even figure out where/how to start. It just isn't fun to play some of them anymore. If the new game follows the same pathway as RTWP, you are going to loose a lot of players.

Gen I don't think you are right. What is the thing, though you should be able to skip some frustration mission. Other than that it's fun to stick with solution and eventually find it. You will feel a great satisfication, so I think there should be easier levels AND hard levels!

Pauline wrote

As for monsters/combat, I'm not too sure about the idea of having to fight things, especially if it takes quick movements. Patrick said something about this game being played with a mouse rather than the keys, but most fighting games are played with a joypad and my joints just wouldn't cope with that. Combat then would have to consist of picking up a weapon and using it, rather than hand to hand.

Fear not fair English maiden
As I mentioned, I'd prefer to see a turn based system (which probably means very little to a lot of people). As the name suggests, each character/monster takes a turn in either attacking/defending rather than a free for all real time sort of combat set up.

For example (and I'll doodle up some visuals later on), at the bottom of the screen you would have your party of x characters, at the top would be the monsters you are fighting. Each of your party members in turn would select whether to attack or defend, and if attack select which opponent to attack & by what method. The monsters would in turn do likewise depending on the intelligence programmed into them and whether of course they're still alive .

From a programming position I'd imagine this would be 'easier' to do and certainly from a player perspective this would be more enjoyable (not hectic) but still require some thinking.

* * * * * * *

I do like the idea of retaining elements from Wonderland - hence still being able to produce Wonderland style puzzles while being able to incorporate so much more. Also Pauline, if possible retaining the line-up of Kabooms , Coilies & the like would satisfy those that don't necessarily like the idea of rpg battles.

I agree that the Wonderland is complex enough for the most devious of puzzles. Certainly there's room for tweeking & some new features but how much more do you add before it becomes too much to remember?

One thing I was wondering Pat regarding the thoughts on linked areas (and remembering Pauline's passion for pushing boxes ), would it be a big ask to be able to push a box through linked areas? For example if you had a body of water to cross (say a fountain) could you 'enter' a house area, find a box & push it out into the 'town' area...

Would it be difficult at all to incorporate the Wonderland features into a new engine and new enviroment (eg rpg/adventure) and have the ability to produce one or the other, or even a combination?

Again, my thoughts above are only that - some suggestions of what I'd like to see. I personally wouldn't like to see just a rehash of Wonderland with a few extra visuals. It may well be in Pat's list of 0.1% chance along with the build your own flower garden...

Please keep the ideas & thoughts coming... oh, and yes I like the idea of retaining Wonderland somewhere in the name.

Robbie

maybe bombs would be useful (not a kaboom, they move too much). u push till u like where the bomb is. press CTRL, bomb starts flashing (no it wont blow up in ure face ) so does a bomb button. press button, bomb goes off in 3...2...1...boom! bomb covers 3 X 3 area. (or 9 tiles in original)


loof 101

1. Maybe an ability to pull certain boxes.
2. Changing (or splitting) textures in 1 Level
3. Costimizible Sinkers
4. Model and texture edidor included in reg. edidor.
5. 'Test' ability included with edidor
6. "More" Wonderland Secrets
7. "save" current potition in Level and resume later
8. "kids" worlds
9. "Pre-incuded" Models w/ edidor
10. Animated Solutions
11 Animated models
12. Mini-games
13. "Hidden" levels
14. Combined Wonderland Games (so I don't have to switch between games)
15. "Cut Scenes Edidor"
16. Multi-Story Levels
17. MORE ELIMENTS
18. Level "Racing"
19. "Chat" with other Players during game
20. UNDO
21. Anomatic updates
22. Upload Passed levels to edidor

How about some thing from "fun ideas" topic??

Well, Here are some of my Ideas.MY IDEAS Gates that open when you defeat baddis around that area. Say thereare 4 chompers. You must Deafeat four chompers to open that gate Mini Stinkers that follow you around an exit through a certain gate.

OR the mission which is to talk with enemies and get their computer password. (probably a silly idea)

i made a specal form for all ideas for ideas to add to the game http://pcpuzzle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7129

Hey guys,

First of some concept doodles… can’t really call it concept art as that’s usually a little higher standard wise

- coin gate (previously suggested)
- ladders new!


Coin/Token Gate
I’m really impressed by the coin gate idea (thanks to the fun ideas crew! ). Maybe you could use a token instead – like a ticket stub model - rather than stealing the coins which have another purpose. Collect so many tickets to access a gate…


Ladders
Going along with the thought of having multiple levels, rather than just shooting up an existing ladder/stairway etc, why not have the ability within the editor to either place a ladder or a ladder ‘impression’ where a ladder piece needs to go to access either that higher or lower level.

Essentially you would be able to collect ladder pieces from within a level (or other area – see linked areas above) which would be stored in an inventory bag. When you come to a wall that requires a ladder piece, it would automatically come out of your inventory & attach itself permanently to the wall.

Levels would probably have to be unit increments for this to work (unless you use say half ladders – 2 to 1 section Pat) & say for multiple heights you could require a player to say have more than one ladder piece. Eg if you had a wall height of 5 units, you might have in place 2 sections & require the player to find 3 pieces to access the new area.

Robbie