New Level - Mushrooms of Confusion *

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Mark
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New Level - Mushrooms of Confusion *

Post by Mark » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:00 pm

.
This is a tiny tribute to Muzozavr and his "Rooms of Confusion".
It's one of the best puzzles I have ever had the joy of playing.

I appreciate you creating such a masterpiece for us,  Muz.
And thank you for the riddles on MushRooms of Confusion.

And here is a new mushroom riddle...

Enjoy! :)

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Post by Muzozavr » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:38 pm

I'm greatly honoured and highly confused. No hints yet -- since this is specifically a tribute to me, it would be pretty shameful for me to not get it. :lol:

I do see a "sequence" and I even tested it in a way that, unfortunately, completely messes up everything else. But at least I know the "sequence" works. :wink:

EDIT: You've found some amazingly bewildering stuff. I've figured out two separate "Criss Angel" (:lol:) moves, now I have to shuffle my actions properly and figure out a way to be in all places without needing an extra step on the breaktile. No hints yet, please!
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
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Post by Amnon » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:28 am

I made it.

The next step is to figure out why it worked...
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Post by Mark » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:32 am

Amnon wrote:The next step is to figure out why it worked...
Hi Amnon,
The room is hermetically sealed as you can see in the editor.
So it's definitely one of those locked room mysteries.
The question is not who done it (since we know who) but how?
Let me know if you figure it out.
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Post by Amnon » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:40 am

Let me know if you figure it out.
The first glitch I understand quite well.

But the mushroom-glitch, I have no clue how that happened.
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Post by Mark » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:00 am

  • Why are the mushrooms there?

    Think about it. The level doesn't really "change" if you replace it with just a wall. It could potentially be for decoration, but there are only two mushrooms in the whole level and their placement is ugly and strange. So, what is their purpose? What's the point behind the mushroom's existence?

                    -  Quote adapted from a Wise Sage
Ah the riddles of life. :wink:
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Post by Amnon » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:05 am

The mushrooms are obviously there because they are adjacent to the space-transporter.

But why would this behaviour occur with a wall or a pyramid or a mushroom in the first place?
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Post by TheoX » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:29 am

Is there some kind of crazy glitch involved in this one? :shock:

I thought Muzo's level was confusing, and it's probably harder, but this one I can't even look at from a logical perspective. I feel like Battler vs. Beatrice here.

I can pull off a three-bounce move in several ways, but they don't seem to get me anywhere. I can also get the transporter to stop in the middle lava tile, but that seems rather useless considering I can't get over there.

I'd like to summon some rainbow spirits to help me with this level. :lol:
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Post by Muzozavr » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:29 am

Is there some kind of crazy glitch involved in this one?
I still can't completely figure out a certain part of the level, but YES, definitely.
I feel like Battler vs. Beatrice here.
It's not a mystery, it's a fantasy! :lol:

It was nighttime for me, so I needed some sleep. Off to try and figure out how to get that last coin... :?

EDIT: OK, made some serious progress. Now I think I finally got the puzzle part right, I'm missing something with the mushroom glitch.

I can get the coin behind the yellow gate, but then, for reasons that I don't entirely understand, I can't get back out. :? On the other hand, if I make a certain move beforehand, I can walk in and out just fine - but that move costs me the last step on the breaktile and the yellow button isn't pressed yet... :? :? :? The rest of the level should be mostly correct at this point, I'm just missing something at the mushrooms.
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
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Post by Mark » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:39 pm

TheoX wrote:Is there some kind of crazy glitch involved in this one? :shock:
Hi Theo,
Yes, I confess there is a crazy glitch (or glitches) in this one. :roll:
I first happened upon it accidentally while testing "Solstice" for shortcuts.
But while further testing the glitch yesterday, I discovered something quite unusual that defied the laws of Wonderland: Making the impossible a reality. :shock:
This level was inspired by a couple of Muzo's past levels, where the trick relied on a transporter. Though I can't remember the glitch or the levels. Perhaps he recalls the ones I'm referring to.
TheoX wrote:I can pull off a three-bounce move in several ways, but they don't seem to get me anywhere. I can also get the transporter to stop in the middle lava tile, but that seems rather useless considering I can't get over there.
The transporter should be at the top lava tile. Also, there's one important bounce you're missing.
Here's a riddle: There is a move you can make, without even physically moving at all.
Do this "motionless move" just before taking an undiscovered dive, then the shrooms will work their magic. :wink:
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Post by Muzozavr » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:39 pm

OK, I think I need a hint now.

Here's what I'm doing, described without spoilers:

1) non-physical move
2) activate first glitch (2 steps of the breaktile used)
3) get out without using the breaktile again, leave ice cube for later
4) jump in and activate second glitch (moving down as soon as possible, otherwise the shrooms magic won't work)
5) now what?

I can move right-left-right-left and get that thing back out, replacing the breaktile... but then the Shrooms magic won't work.

I can just step right-down to get out and place the ice cube on the yellow button. But after that, if I jump to the top, the top mushroom isn't magical and I'm stuck. If I glitch my way up, the bottom mushroom stops being magical for no apparent reason. I can keep the top one and the nearby walls magical, but that still gives me no way out and I'm forced to jump to my death.

I can move right-left-down-right and keep both mushrooms magical in both directions. That works. Unfortunately, these moves cost me the last step on the breaktile, so after I cover the yellow button, I can't get back.

Unfortunately, I cannot move right-left-right-down because on the third step it pulls me into a wall with no way to keep the thing where I want it to be.

I've tried various methods that start with just going down immediately, but they also waste the breaktile without offering any apparent advantages.

I also tried covering the yellow button as soon as possible, but then the second glitch isn't activated yet, and activating it this way requires me to destroy the ice cube first, leaving the yellow button uncovered once again. There doesn't seem to be any way of walking around the ice cube, either.

If only the breaktile was a hex-edited 4-step wonder, I'd know what to do, but it's a regular 3-step...

I feel like I've exhausted all possibilities. I'm stumped.
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
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Post by Mark » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:48 pm

Muzozavr wrote:OK, I think I need a hint now. I feel like I've exhausted all possibilities. I'm stumped.
Hi Muz,

The sequence of events is important:
  • 1. Activate  the  first  glitch.
    2. Cover something yellow.
    3. Do a non-physical move.
    4. Perform a very long dive.
Let me know if that helps.
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Post by Muzozavr » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:07 pm

Would you believe that was almost the first thing I tried? :lol: Unfortunately, that was from before I understood just how exactly the glitch really works, so I didn't realize that the magic can work from one side only. So I tried to walk through the bottom one, found it impassable and gave up on this approach before doing the dive. Then I found out that you can activate the second glitch by a certain physical action and that led me down the wrong line of thinking... :( Yes, I've finally made it out now.

Just for fun, try doing the non-physical move right before (or at) the moment the first glitch activates. If you get the timing right, you'll witness something quite strange! :shock:

Anyway, I'm a bit disappointed at myself for missing something that should've been fairly obvious once I figured out how the glitch works and needing a hint to get to the exit, but thank you for a fascinating level. I remember doing some crazy stuff with transporters, but you've just taken all that to a whole new level.
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
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Post by Mark » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:26 pm

Muzozavr wrote:I didn't realize that the magic can work from one side only.
It works from both sides, but only after.
Muzozavr wrote:Yes, I've finally made it out now.
I'm happy you were able to experience the hallucinogenic shrooms without any side effects. :wink:
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Post by Muzozavr » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:51 pm

It works from both sides, but only after.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that it works from one side at a time. You can cross over as many times as you wish, but doing another dive after will leave you stuck.
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
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Post by Mark » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:22 pm

Muzozavr wrote:You can cross over as many times as you wish, but doing another dive after will leave you stuck.
Wow, another paradox, and an interesting find! 8)
I wonder why another dive would revert it back? :?

Chip is good at understanding all these things. :)
I bet he will be able to explain these mysteries.

EDIT:
Muzozavr wrote:Just for fun, try doing the non-physical move right before (or at) the moment the first glitch activates.
If you get the timing right, you'll witness something quite strange! :shock:
If you mean with the transporter sliding.   Then yes,  I have seen it.
I believe that is what provides the mushrooms with magical properties.
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Post by TheoX » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:49 am

Clearly you've discovered some never-before-seen trick so obscure that it's more of an enigma than any other level you've ever made. I bow to your glitch finding skills and await a video solution. I cannot figure this out and if I try any longer, my head will likely combust. :lol:

EDIT: Thanks for the PM. I never would have gotten that on my own!
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Post by Chip » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:26 pm

Hi Mark, hi Muzo

The glitch that you've descovered is very complex. I can't explain why it works, but we can have a closer look on how it works.
Please load the attached level (it reduces the puzzle to the required minimum) and play the beginning as you're used.
Watch the upper transporter! What happend?

An object on a moving transporter was destroyed. In this case the transporter is stopped and gets a weird object: It acts like a wall for the characters, but you still can push items (the ice cube for example) on it and strange things will happen. This is a well known glitch in Wonderland, and I'm sure you know it.

But at the same time the programm tried to decide wich object came in first: The boulder on the transporter or the flying ice cube. In our case it was the boulder on the transporter, so it got destroyed and the ice cube survived the adventure.
So far the facts - the rest is speculation, and I have two ideas:

1. The game's graphics had an object trying to move a transporter to the right, but no more transporter (it's physically something else now). So the game searched the next transporter and moved it graphically to the new position. (I tried different starting points for the second transporter, and most of them, but not all, worked. I couldn't figure out a pattern.)

2. Or the glitch is linked to the secrets of the left border. You know them bettar than I, Mark, so you can possibly find more answers in this approach.

In any case we have three transporters now:
1. The bottom one is graphically a transporter but physically a wall or a weird object.
2. The top left one is graphically no more visible but physically a transporter (you can enter and/or move it).
3. And the top right one is graphically a transporter but physically non-existent (you can't enter it).

If you now move the invisible top left transporter up, by yourself or by a box, the game seems to have (and to solve) the same problem vice versa: Something is trying to move a physically existent transporter up, but there's no graphic equivalent. So the move and it's behaviour are transfered to the next available possibilty.

I really don't now how, but you coverted two mushrooms into a transporter and an empty tile, Mark. Mr Spock would say: "Fascinating!" :lol:
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Post by Amnon » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:12 pm

It must be a complete bug in the program, definitely unintended.

I just added another void-transporter on the top-right corner... and something completely different happened: the ice-cube bounced back!
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Post by Mark » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:35 pm

Chip wrote:I really don't now how, but you converted two mushrooms into a transporter and an empty tile, Mark.
That's some amazing stuff, Chip! 8)

Thank you so much for taking the time to take it apart, and analyze it for me.
It's not often when a new bug rears its head and this one was quite peculiar. :shock:
Amnon wrote:It must be a complete bug in the program, definitely unintended.
I wouldn't be at all surprised, Amnon.
I used to QA test games for a living and was labeled a "Bug Magnet". :lol:
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Post by Muzozavr » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:49 pm

I think the first time this glitch was discovered is actually by John925. His setup involved a complicated and conspicious object placement, including fiery shadow stinkers. He also discovered the strange "transporter linking together" effect long ago, but I don't think he was ever able to explain it. It, along with something even stranger, became a one-off occurence to be shown off in a level once and then forgotten.

I can't find the original threads where he reported the bug, but this is the level he made that features it, along with other glitches: "It's an Odd World After All!". The transporter glitch can be seen in its full glory, with transporter "linking" effects and, also, invisible trampoline creation. I'm not even kidding.

The glitch was wonderful but nigh impossible to use within a puzzle without calling too much attention to it. I converted it into a version that did not require your presence within the action and used it to permanently seal the exit gate in "A Stroll in the Garden", but I've never seen the original shadow stinker setup anywhere outside of the "Odd World" level just because it's so specific.

Independently Loirae discovered another version, later on used by Mark in his "Mind Freak" level. This predates the "Odd World" level, so this may actually be the first discovered version of this glitch. I think John925's discovery happened even before "Mind Freak", because it took him some time to build the "Odd World" level, but I can't be sure now.

The beauty of this version is that everything seems "normal" at first glance. This is usable within a puzzle.

Independently, either having never seen the "Mind Freak" level or having forgotten about it (I'm not sure) I created my version in "Nothing Hiding". It was quite conspicious, but it worked. At the time, it was revolutionary because it allowed a stinker to physically be on the transporter at the time the glitch occurs, thus allowing you to bypass otherwise impassable objects. I used it again in "Simple 011" in, arguably, a rather unfair way. Using the glitch allows you to skip the coins (which are impossible to get) and exit the level by riding through the exit gate.

Then I realized I only needed ONE object coming in from the side to get this version to work, not two, as I previously thought. I discovered this by replaying "Simple 011". The new version with one object was soon used with some misdirection in "Simple 014". That's the version I used quite a few times since then. I one-upped myself with "Mission Impossible", which is a level that I now like less than I used to, but it does include a never-before-seen variation on the consequences of this glitch. By riding into a generator through a wall, one can force the generator to send a boulder through that wall.

Later on, in a level posted on my "Shadow" account, I've created a trampoline-less version of this glitch. Other tricks are needed to even set this up. The result is "Simple 018". I'm not sure if it's the same glitch program-wise, though, because the post-glitch behaviour of this transporter is a bit different.

There were also hex-editing experiments. For those who may not know, by editing the code of an LV6 file directly, you can create objects that aren't in the level editor and were never intended to be used. Most of them crash the game, some of them are mundane, but some are very interesting and strange. I think Mark first discovered this idea and used it in "Levitation" to have two Loofs on a single level. It's a beautiful piece of Wonderland magic.

It wouldn't be relevant to the transporter glitch, but one such object is essentially a pre-glitched void transporter. It acts exactly the same, even leaving behind it a row of glitched transporter-like tiles. Another hex-edited object is a pre-glitched void tranposter that leaves behind itself a row of invisible trampolines. The hex-edit discussions can be found HERE and HERE.

To be quite honest, I thought the history of this glitch to be over, because without John925 to support it, the freakier parts of it were unexplainable one-off occurences... but it seems Mark has managed to write another chapter in this by creating a level designed around an almost completely new side effect that involves the "transporters linkin together" part of the glitch. Amnon's additional discovery is also quite startling.

I agree, it does seem to be a complete bug in the program and I'm honestly not sure how it works or what happens to the transporter. It almost seems like the "transporter in motion" is actually coded as a separate object (which is probably why you can find it by hex-editing) and when you glitch up a transporter, you get to keep it in that "motion" state and exploit it. That still doesn't explain all the other weird things, though.

It really is a fascinating bug with a long, long history behind it. After "Mushrooms of Confusion", I officially declare transporters to be the glitchiest objects in the game. :lol:
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
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Post by Mark » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:14 pm

Another interesting thing I discovered with this particular setup, was the glitch will only happen with a plasma cube.
And the cube does not have to crash directly on top of the moving boulder. It can just simply slide into the boulder.
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Post by Muzozavr » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:19 pm

That's even stranger. It's clear that our understanding of what's going on behind-the-scenes is quite limited. :?
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
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Post by Sammy_P » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:06 am

finished the level last night. really amazing stuff! :shock:
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Solution for "Mushrooms of Confusion"

Post by Mark » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:59 pm

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